Something that has always interested me about pitch recognition is this. Let's say you're recalling a tune in your head. Do you recall it in the key you heard it in? I've tested this on myself and sometimes I recall it in the same key I learned it in. I don't have perfect pitch, but sometimes I can sing a Bb if I'm recalling a tune that starts on a Bb. I'd be interested in what others have to say about this.
I don't have perfect pitch, but some things 'resonate' with me. For some reason, if I hear someone play an Eb triad on the piano, I know it's an Eb triad. It doesn't happen to me in all keys, just some chords and inversions. Maybe there is some resonance I am hearing or how some of the notes interact with each other. I don't know. Some songs I sing, I can sing in the original key, without a reference tone. I think it might have something to do with where my voice range lays and how much work I need to hit a note.
I have a friend that tunes his upright bass without a tuner. He does not have perfect pitch. I think that the resonance of the bass may have been tuned to, say E, and he tuning his string to where it resonates best. I never tested my theory though.
I'll have to listen to that episode. Sounds interesting. Maybe we should move this to another thread.
I had to join in on this because I'm one of those fortunate (or unfortunate) individuals who has perfect pitch. Advantages are, obviously, in transcribing, but even then, I struggle with how to notate certain rhythms. In college, in ear training, or aural activities, as my particular school called it, I could take aural dictation like nobody's business but, like Gary, had trouble with solfege and moveable do. Singing a capella pieces in choirs was torture at times, because I'd hear the pitch of the choir slide downwards gradually, like a sort of doppler effect. I was a percussion minor so I could make lightning-fast pitch changes on timps, so that was an advantage, as well as playing passages written for 4 or 5 timps, on three, or even two! Learning tunes, again, no problem. As far as these keyboards and synths go, where you can set a transposer, no dice--can't use 'em. So I transpose the "good ol' fashioned way!"
I had to join in on this because I'm one of those fortunate (or unfortunate) individuals who has perfect pitch. Advantages are, obviously, in transcribing, but even then, I struggle with how to notate certain rhythms. In college, in ear training, or aural activities, as my particular school called it, I could take aural dictation like nobody's business but, like Gary, had trouble with solfege and moveable do. Singing a capella pieces in choirs was torture at times, because I'd hear the pitch of the choir slide downwards gradually, like a sort of doppler effect. I was a percussion minor so I could make lightning-fast pitch changes on timps, so that was an advantage, as well as playing passages written for 4 or 5 timps, on three, or even two! Learning tunes, again, no problem. As far as these keyboards and synths go, where you can set a transposer, no dice--can't use 'em. So I transpose the "good ol' fashioned way!"
Tony, you're not making it easy on me! I feel like, at this point, no matter what I get, I will find a way to convince myself that I should have gotten the other one. haha. Who's to say that I will always being doing local gigs? You never know. jk. But seriously these vibes are gonna have to last me a while (not a problem, because I always take extremely good care of equipment.)
PS. I can't wait for the workshop, I'm working out some details about travel and stuff as we speak.
It only takes me 8 - 11 minutes to set up and break down! I think what it comes down to is what kind of vehicle are you transporting in. If its a sedan the 48 is a must. it fits COMPLETELY in the trunk. If you have a jeep or hatch back type car that you can put the seats down then the 55 would be fine.
Unless you play in a lot of percussion ensembles with other 442 instruments the jazz world uses 440. Every piano I have EVER encountered at jazz clubs and concert halls is 440. There is no way that is changing in the states.
you will notice a strange rub with 442 that is soothingly gone when you use 440.
Well Tuning is still and issue. I make my order tomorrow.... But I dont know what tuning to get.
As of right now, I'm planning on the M48 tuned to A=440
Another thing about the M48 is that I like how the legs detach from the keybed. So If I'm just going down the street I can just take the legs off and resonators. Maybe the M55 can do the same thing. I have no idea. -Joe Doubleday
i can walk the 55 10 blocks with ease. cases and rock and roller, up and down steps, no sweat at all. one trip in and out.
i think i'm going to lose this battle, but i'll stay in the fight. personally, and remember i'm a gig whore, if you followed me around for a weekend and then followed someone with a 48 you would be convinced.
ultimately i think the 55 will last longer, and i think a lot longer than a 48.
ok, you 48 good for nothing players, i'm going to battle until the very end.
and you know it, it's not definite, but just so i win this battle, i might actually by him the 55 personally. it's not definite yet, but i might, just so i show you 48 guys up. we will see, i bought a lottery ticket last night and if i win 10 million, i'm buying joe's vibes. ok, top that mr. burton and mr. pinto? :-)
haha
I mean you do have ALOT more experience than I do so I can't argue on that end, but I think your insane amount of gigs per night is an anomaly for vibe players!
Along the lines of Gary's advice on the advantages of 440, it might be fair to say that a 440 vibe would make you more marketable as a sideman. I sold my Provibe last year, but I definitely used the fact that it was tuned to 440 as a tool to get the price I wanted for it. When I eventually sell my Deagan, I'm sure I'll do the same.
Falls Percussion has a set of bars for sale on ebay, but they don't indicate whether they are 440 or 442 bars. Depending on which, it might be a good opportunity to pick up a second set of bars, especially if they are 440 bars. Here is the link: http://cgi.ebay.com/Set-of-Musser-M55-Pro-Vibraphone-BARS-ONLY_W0QQitem…
so we have here an in depth discussion, on the 48 tne 55 and 440 and 442 and from players all over the world, and headed up by gary. this is totally cool to me. i put it in the good vibes online book for future reference.
JOE you better give us a concert when you get this instrument for all our help!
Just thought I'd let everyone know that I ordered the M48 (sorry Tony, I think you'll understand when I have to carry a stick to keep the girls away). I ordered it at A=440. I ordered it from Steve Weiss and was told that it would be about 6 weeks. Now I am in the process of saving up for cases and a roller cart, then mics or pickups (I'll start another thread on that later).
I really appreciate the input from everyone and I feel that I have made an educated decision. I know the pros and cons of what I got and I'm willing to live with that for now.
I hope it doesn't take 6 months. The customer service guy told me that it was taking 6 months before because of some kind of strike that was happening.
When I finally get it I'll take some pictures of myself with it and whatever ladies that might be around when I take the picture
now for the cases. soft or hard? (you're immature).
beiner bags, i recommend him for the soft cases. although hmmm i bet with the way that thing packs up, you could use luggage, right? cases are better though.
I was thinking soft cases for now because I'm not the wealthiest person. I like the way the beiner bags look and work but they are fairly expensive. Whats the cheapest thing I can get. Or what is a good way to transport it until I can get some cases? Anyone have any used cases?
More like 500 dollars, 800+ is stretching it. Hard cases are like 1,000
I was talking with my dad and he had the idea of the tupperware bins and putting some foam in them to separate the parts and stuff. That might work as a temporary solution.
Heck, if they take 6 months to come in i should have cases by then.
for m55? i can't find the pricing. send me a link.
we worked on those cases together. vibe cases 1.0 were not happening at all. but he's a good guy and works hard. the 2.0 cases made the grade i think. i'm using them now. he told me $550. you know what if they're $850 we need to look around. we have strength in numbers now, so maybe that gives us a little clout over here at VW.
now i know 550 does not include the bag for the bars. that's not a priority i think. i bought that separate, and actually love it, but still i could live without it.
Here's the link that says $825 -- http://www.beinerbags.com/proddetail.php?prod=M55-1. But I think maybe you've hit on the discrepancy. $825 includes the bag for the bars. I use a roller suitcase for the bars and that seems to be working very well for me, so I wasn't terribly interested in the bars bag anyway.
Your Dad is a genius! Pack all your stuff in Tupperware and then you could make money doing jazzy Tupperware parties! Tupperware would probably give you the stuff for free.
Comments
More information about tonal languages and perfect pitch.
DrBobM55 Fri, 08/07/2009 - 22:16
In reply to Perfect pitch is no big deal by Gary Burton
This is a link to an episode of RadioLab from NPR. It lasts an hour, but it's interesting and deals with melodic languages and perfect pitch. It's well done.
http://www.wnyc.org/shows/radiolab/episodes/2006/04/21
Something that has always interested me about pitch recognition is this. Let's say you're recalling a tune in your head. Do you recall it in the key you heard it in? I've tested this on myself and sometimes I recall it in the same key I learned it in. I don't have perfect pitch, but sometimes I can sing a Bb if I'm recalling a tune that starts on a Bb. I'd be interested in what others have to say about this.
Bob Wesner
Pitch Recognition
BarryK Fri, 08/07/2009 - 23:15
In reply to More information about tonal languages and perfect pitch. by DrBobM55
I don't have perfect pitch, but some things 'resonate' with me. For some reason, if I hear someone play an Eb triad on the piano, I know it's an Eb triad. It doesn't happen to me in all keys, just some chords and inversions. Maybe there is some resonance I am hearing or how some of the notes interact with each other. I don't know. Some songs I sing, I can sing in the original key, without a reference tone. I think it might have something to do with where my voice range lays and how much work I need to hit a note.
I have a friend that tunes his upright bass without a tuner. He does not have perfect pitch. I think that the resonance of the bass may have been tuned to, say E, and he tuning his string to where it resonates best. I never tested my theory though.
I'll have to listen to that episode. Sounds interesting. Maybe we should move this to another thread.
Barry
Perfect Pitch
pap4456 Sat, 08/08/2009 - 15:41
In reply to Pitch Recognition by BarryK
I had to join in on this because I'm one of those fortunate (or unfortunate) individuals who has perfect pitch. Advantages are, obviously, in transcribing, but even then, I struggle with how to notate certain rhythms. In college, in ear training, or aural activities, as my particular school called it, I could take aural dictation like nobody's business but, like Gary, had trouble with solfege and moveable do. Singing a capella pieces in choirs was torture at times, because I'd hear the pitch of the choir slide downwards gradually, like a sort of doppler effect. I was a percussion minor so I could make lightning-fast pitch changes on timps, so that was an advantage, as well as playing passages written for 4 or 5 timps, on three, or even two! Learning tunes, again, no problem. As far as these keyboards and synths go, where you can set a transposer, no dice--can't use 'em. So I transpose the "good ol' fashioned way!"
Perfect Pitch Pros and Cons as I See It
pap4456 Sat, 08/08/2009 - 15:44
In reply to Pitch Recognition by BarryK
I had to join in on this because I'm one of those fortunate (or unfortunate) individuals who has perfect pitch. Advantages are, obviously, in transcribing, but even then, I struggle with how to notate certain rhythms. In college, in ear training, or aural activities, as my particular school called it, I could take aural dictation like nobody's business but, like Gary, had trouble with solfege and moveable do. Singing a capella pieces in choirs was torture at times, because I'd hear the pitch of the choir slide downwards gradually, like a sort of doppler effect. I was a percussion minor so I could make lightning-fast pitch changes on timps, so that was an advantage, as well as playing passages written for 4 or 5 timps, on three, or even two! Learning tunes, again, no problem. As far as these keyboards and synths go, where you can set a transposer, no dice--can't use 'em. So I transpose the "good ol' fashioned way!"
just to keep the discussion going
tonymiceli Wed, 08/05/2009 - 23:30
In reply to A440? by Jdoubleday
you have 4 gigs this week, the m-55 for local gigs will take you 5 minutes to set up. the will take 15 i bet. let's see what pinto's time is.
hey man, i'm just lobbying for the 55. i think you're going to be happier if you're gigging. but just having a new set of vibes will make you happy!
i wonder what ed has to say? or some of the other pros on the site.
if your 4 gigs are on a plane then that might be a different story.
ok just keeping you on your toes.
------------------------
Tony Miceli
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com
www.facebook.com/people/Tony-Miceli/604414578
http://twitter.com/tonymiceli
www.myspace.com/tonymicelivibes
Not making it easy!
Jdoubleday Wed, 08/05/2009 - 23:36
In reply to just to keep the discussion going by tonymiceli
Tony, you're not making it easy on me! I feel like, at this point, no matter what I get, I will find a way to convince myself that I should have gotten the other one. haha. Who's to say that I will always being doing local gigs? You never know. jk. But seriously these vibes are gonna have to last me a while (not a problem, because I always take extremely good care of equipment.)
PS. I can't wait for the workshop, I'm working out some details about travel and stuff as we speak.
-Joe Doubleday
http://myspace.com/joedoubleday
http://www.youtube.com/user/Issossk
It only takes me 8 - 11
mikepinto Thu, 08/06/2009 - 00:18
In reply to Not making it easy! by Jdoubleday
It only takes me 8 - 11 minutes to set up and break down! I think what it comes down to is what kind of vehicle are you transporting in. If its a sedan the 48 is a must. it fits COMPLETELY in the trunk. If you have a jeep or hatch back type car that you can put the seats down then the 55 would be fine.
Unless you play in a lot of percussion ensembles with other 442 instruments the jazz world uses 440. Every piano I have EVER encountered at jazz clubs and concert halls is 440. There is no way that is changing in the states.
you will notice a strange rub with 442 that is soothingly gone when you use 440.
- www.mikepinto.net
there you have
tonymiceli Thu, 08/06/2009 - 00:38
In reply to It only takes me 8 - 11 by mikepinto
man you have a ton of info here!
good luck. 8-11 minutes set up time isn't bad. i can't do that with mine, but i rarely take it out.
good luck and let us know what you pick!
------------------------
Tony Miceli
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com
www.facebook.com/people/Tony-Miceli/604414578
http://twitter.com/tonymiceli
www.myspace.com/tonymicelivibes
Well Tuning
Jdoubleday Thu, 08/06/2009 - 01:12
In reply to there you have by tonymiceli
Well Tuning is still and issue. I make my order tomorrow.... But I dont know what tuning to get.
As of right now, I'm planning on the M48 tuned to A=440
Another thing about the M48 is that I like how the legs detach from the keybed. So If I'm just going down the street I can just take the legs off and resonators. Maybe the M55 can do the same thing. I have no idea. -Joe Doubleday
http://myspace.com/joedoubleday
http://www.youtube.com/user/Issossk
legs
tonymiceli Thu, 08/06/2009 - 10:29
In reply to Well Tuning by Jdoubleday
the legs on the 55 fold up.
i can walk the 55 10 blocks with ease. cases and rock and roller, up and down steps, no sweat at all. one trip in and out.
i think i'm going to lose this battle, but i'll stay in the fight. personally, and remember i'm a gig whore, if you followed me around for a weekend and then followed someone with a 48 you would be convinced.
ultimately i think the 55 will last longer, and i think a lot longer than a 48.
ok, you 48 good for nothing players, i'm going to battle until the very end.
and you know it, it's not definite, but just so i win this battle, i might actually by him the 55 personally. it's not definite yet, but i might, just so i show you 48 guys up. we will see, i bought a lottery ticket last night and if i win 10 million, i'm buying joe's vibes. ok, top that mr. burton and mr. pinto? :-)
------------------------
Tony Miceli
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com
www.facebook.com/people/Tony-Miceli/604414578
http://twitter.com/tonymiceli
www.myspace.com/tonymicelivibes
haha I mean you do have ALOT
mikepinto Thu, 08/06/2009 - 12:26
In reply to legs by tonymiceli
haha
I mean you do have ALOT more experience than I do so I can't argue on that end, but I think your insane amount of gigs per night is an anomaly for vibe players!
- www.mikepinto.net
gig whore
tonymiceli Thu, 08/06/2009 - 15:38
In reply to haha I mean you do have ALOT by mikepinto
it's either work my butt off or go back to exotic dancing. and i don't want to go back to that every again!!!
hey you way more experience than me packing up the 48. i've only done it about 4 times!
------------------------
Tony Miceli
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com
www.facebook.com/people/Tony-Miceli/604414578
http://twitter.com/tonymiceli
www.myspace.com/tonymicelivibes
440 and holding value
John Keene Thu, 08/06/2009 - 11:35
In reply to Well Tuning by Jdoubleday
Along the lines of Gary's advice on the advantages of 440, it might be fair to say that a 440 vibe would make you more marketable as a sideman. I sold my Provibe last year, but I definitely used the fact that it was tuned to 440 as a tool to get the price I wanted for it. When I eventually sell my Deagan, I'm sure I'll do the same.
Falls Percussion has a set of bars for sale on ebay, but they don't indicate whether they are 440 or 442 bars. Depending on which, it might be a good opportunity to pick up a second set of bars, especially if they are 440 bars. Here is the link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Set-of-Musser-M55-Pro-Vibraphone-BARS-ONLY_W0QQitem…
this is pretty thorough huh?
tonymiceli Thu, 08/06/2009 - 11:50
so we have here an in depth discussion, on the 48 tne 55 and 440 and 442 and from players all over the world, and headed up by gary. this is totally cool to me. i put it in the good vibes online book for future reference.
JOE you better give us a concert when you get this instrument for all our help!
------------------------
Tony Miceli
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com
www.facebook.com/people/Tony-Miceli/604414578
http://twitter.com/tonymiceli
www.myspace.com/tonymicelivibes
Thanks Everyone
Jdoubleday Fri, 08/07/2009 - 12:30
Just thought I'd let everyone know that I ordered the M48 (sorry Tony, I think you'll understand when I have to carry a stick to keep the girls away). I ordered it at A=440. I ordered it from Steve Weiss and was told that it would be about 6 weeks. Now I am in the process of saving up for cases and a roller cart, then mics or pickups (I'll start another thread on that later).
I really appreciate the input from everyone and I feel that I have made an educated decision. I know the pros and cons of what I got and I'm willing to live with that for now.
I hope it doesn't take 6 months. The customer service guy told me that it was taking 6 months before because of some kind of strike that was happening.
When I finally get it I'll take some pictures of myself with it and whatever ladies that might be around when I take the picture
-Joe Doubleday
http://myspace.com/joedoubleday
http://www.youtube.com/user/Issossk
now for the cases
tonymiceli Fri, 08/07/2009 - 12:59
In reply to Thanks Everyone by Jdoubleday
ok, joe, it's all about the chicks, so go for it!
now for the cases. soft or hard? (you're immature).
beiner bags, i recommend him for the soft cases. although hmmm i bet with the way that thing packs up, you could use luggage, right? cases are better though.
good luck. it's cool watching your progress.
------------------------
Tony Miceli
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com
www.facebook.com/people/Tony-Miceli/604414578
http://twitter.com/tonymiceli
www.myspace.com/tonymicelivibes
Hahaha
Jdoubleday Fri, 08/07/2009 - 13:06
In reply to now for the cases by tonymiceli
I was thinking soft cases for now because I'm not the wealthiest person. I like the way the beiner bags look and work but they are fairly expensive. Whats the cheapest thing I can get. Or what is a good way to transport it until I can get some cases? Anyone have any used cases?
-Joe Doubleday
http://myspace.com/joedoubleday
http://www.youtube.com/user/Issossk
cases
tonymiceli Fri, 08/07/2009 - 13:37
In reply to Hahaha by Jdoubleday
you're buying a 4000 dollar instrument and you're looking for 50 dollar cases?
try suitcases. but i learned a long time ago, expensive instruments need to be in good cases.
------------------------
Tony Miceli
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com
www.facebook.com/people/Tony-Miceli/604414578
http://twitter.com/tonymiceli
www.myspace.com/tonymicelivibes
Not 50
Jdoubleday Fri, 08/07/2009 - 13:52
In reply to cases by tonymiceli
More like 500 dollars, 800+ is stretching it. Hard cases are like 1,000
I was talking with my dad and he had the idea of the tupperware bins and putting some foam in them to separate the parts and stuff. That might work as a temporary solution.
Heck, if they take 6 months to come in i should have cases by then.
-Joe Doubleday
http://myspace.com/joedoubleday
http://www.youtube.com/user/Issossk
the beiner cases
tonymiceli Fri, 08/07/2009 - 16:21
In reply to Not 50 by Jdoubleday
for the m-55 they're $550.
------------------------
Tony Miceli
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com
www.facebook.com/people/Tony-Miceli/604414578
http://twitter.com/tonymiceli
www.myspace.com/tonymicelivibes
lol
Jdoubleday Fri, 08/07/2009 - 16:25
In reply to the beiner cases by tonymiceli
lol. -Joe Doubleday
http://myspace.com/joedoubleday
http://www.youtube.com/user/Issossk
That's a new one
DanaSud Sat, 08/08/2009 - 15:46
In reply to lol by Jdoubleday
Never thought I would hear those two words together in a sentence let alone as a descriptor of one to the other!
"jazzy-tupperware??!!!???"
Ok. I'm scared now. LOL
tupperware
tonymiceli Sun, 08/09/2009 - 01:11
In reply to That's a new one by DanaSud
now if they would hire a jazz trio at all those tupperware parties, we'd have a lot of gigs!
------------------------
Tony Miceli
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com
www.facebook.com/people/Tony-Miceli/604414578
http://twitter.com/tonymiceli
www.myspace.com/tonymicelivibes
Beiner bags $550?
tpvibes Fri, 08/07/2009 - 19:20
In reply to the beiner cases by tonymiceli
Really? The website says they're $825. $550 is much more interesting.
Tom P.
$850??
tonymiceli Fri, 08/07/2009 - 22:58
In reply to Beiner bags $550? by tpvibes
for m55? i can't find the pricing. send me a link.
we worked on those cases together. vibe cases 1.0 were not happening at all. but he's a good guy and works hard. the 2.0 cases made the grade i think. i'm using them now. he told me $550. you know what if they're $850 we need to look around. we have strength in numbers now, so maybe that gives us a little clout over here at VW.
now i know 550 does not include the bag for the bars. that's not a priority i think. i bought that separate, and actually love it, but still i could live without it.
------------------------
Tony Miceli
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com
www.facebook.com/people/Tony-Miceli/604414578
http://twitter.com/tonymiceli
www.myspace.com/tonymicelivibes
Beiner bags pricing
tpvibes Fri, 08/07/2009 - 23:38
In reply to $850?? by tonymiceli
Hi Tony,
Here's the link that says $825 -- http://www.beinerbags.com/proddetail.php?prod=M55-1. But I think maybe you've hit on the discrepancy. $825 includes the bag for the bars. I use a roller suitcase for the bars and that seems to be working very well for me, so I wasn't terribly interested in the bars bag anyway.
Tom P.
Your Dad is a genius! Pack
DrBobM55 Fri, 08/07/2009 - 20:32
In reply to Not 50 by Jdoubleday
Your Dad is a genius! Pack all your stuff in Tupperware and then you could make money doing jazzy Tupperware parties! Tupperware would probably give you the stuff for free.
Bob Wesner
Hi Joe! I own an M48,and I
Vaggelis Thu, 11/25/2010 - 19:37
In reply to Thanks Everyone by Jdoubleday
Hi Joe!
I own an M48,and I want to congratulate you for your smart choice!
This thing is like booty magnet!You are definately cleaning up now!
Weeha!
P.S I need those foxy pix!please post as soon as possible!:)
go joe
tonymiceli Fri, 11/26/2010 - 11:25
In reply to Thanks Everyone by Jdoubleday
yes, photos of you and ladies is very welcome on the site. so you're saying the m-48 is sexier? is that my problem??
congrats!!!!