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How do you pronounce the notes? (just curiousity)

Marie-Noëlle 2 October 2008

After listening to John's ear exercices, I'm just curious about one thing: so far I thought that all Anglo-saxon people were always naming the notes with letters, and that only a few European countries like France were using the D'Arezzo system.

It seems that I was wrong. I had more had looks on scores with chords mentioned with letters, but it's the very first time I hear an English speaking person name notes :o)

So, are you all naming the notes with the D'Arezzo system, and just using the letters for chords naming? Or do you use both systems?

I also noticed that when written, there were some differences. For instance you seem to write the note "Si" that way "Ti"...

It's just music/language curiosity...

Haven't we talked that both were linked? ;o)

Thanks for your answer... John?

Comments

tonymiceli Thu, 10/02/2008 - 09:28

i never used the letters. i don't even get it. but john does. i'm curious what and why with those letters. i think they're helpful.

s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com

Piper Thu, 10/02/2008 - 10:08

www.JohnMarkPiper.com

Tony,
I think you meant to say you don't use the "syllables" right? You said you never use the letters. The letters are A, B, C, D, E, F, G and their sharps and flats. You use those...

The reason I use the syllables is because it is a very constant sound that helps identify the function and personality of notes within a key no matter what key you're in and it helps to organize those sounds by function, sound, personality or however you think of them. For instance; "Ti" always sounds like "Ti", Mi always sounds like Mi and so on. In the key of C, "Ti" is B but in F, "Ti" is E but if you don't have "perfect pitch" and you aren't told what key you're in, they both have the same personality within their keys. All you have to do is memorize those sounds and then apply it to all keys.

I like to use solfege (do, re, mi's) when dealing with components of a scale, line or melody and numbers when dealing with partials of a chord (1,3, 5, b7 etc) and Roman Numerals when analyzing chords and harmony(Imaj7, II-7, V7(b9) I6 etc).

Note that modern music uses "moveable Do" meaning that Do is always the "Tonic" of the key and the rest of the syllables are relative to that. The old way (which may originate with the syllables

check out wikipedia for more information on Solfege and (solfeggio).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solfege

D'Arezzo system
http://www.totallyratted.com/theory/0004_guido.pdf

Marie-Noëlle Thu, 10/02/2008 - 11:10

I see. So you prefer to use names for melodies and letters for chords. It’s a bit the way we work here, but it changes regarding the style of music : jazz and rock musicians will work that way. But the classical musicians don’t use the letters at all.

One more question: why do you pronounce the note « Si » (or B) as « Ti ». Is it to avoid making mistake with the note/letter « C » when speaking?

I had learned quite recently the history of the names (I like to know the origins of things). But I still wonder about the change into letters, and why beginning with « La » instead of Do...

Marie-Noëlle Thu, 10/02/2008 - 11:23

Then for me, I mean for us in France it works that way:

A: La
B: Si
C: Do
D: Ré
E: Mi
F: Fa
G: Sol

Piper Thu, 10/02/2008 - 11:43

www.JohnMarkPiper.com

In order for solfege to apply in jazz or improvisation of modern music the way I'm using it, you have to incorporate the "moveable DO" system.

If you are in the Key of "C": "C" is Do and in the key of F, "F" is do and all the syllables adjust accordingly.

Marie-Noëlle Thu, 10/02/2008 - 11:49

I see, so it depends in which key you were, but B would well be Si in the key of C… ? I don’t know if we use that system. Solfège is quite « chinese » to me! :o)
(sorry Maestro !)

Piper Thu, 10/02/2008 - 12:17

www.JohnMarkPiper.com

no. "B" will never be "Si" in the Key of "C". "B" can only be "Si" in the key of Eb.

(Whew! "Who's on first?")

BarryK Thu, 10/02/2008 - 13:02

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solfege#Fixed_do_solf.C3.A8ge
"In the major Romance languages (Spanish, Portuguese, French, Italian), the syllables Do, Re, Mi, Fa, Sol, La, and Si are used to name notes the same way that the letters C, D, E, F, G, A, and B are used to name notes in English."

So, B is "Si" in key of C, see?

Third base.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who%27s_on_First%3F

Barry

John Keene Thu, 10/02/2008 - 13:29

You're all going to hate me for this, but SOMEONE has to say it:

"Let's start at the very beginning
A very good place to start
When you read you begin with A-B-C
When you sing you begin with do-re-mi

[Maria:]

"Doe, a deer, a female deer
Ray, a drop of golden sun
Me, a name I call myself
Far, a long, long way to run
Sew, a needle pulling thread
La, a note to follow Sew
Tea, a drink with jam and bread
That will bring us back to Do (oh-oh-oh)"

I apologise, but it may resolve the "ti" vs. "si" issue.

Stefan74 Fri, 10/03/2008 - 10:38

Hi!

There is a book titeled "Beginning Ear Training (Ear Training: Exercises)" by Gilson Schachnik in the Berklee educational series that also uses the "moving" Do.

It's funny that the note "b" in the Roman languages called "Si" has changed to "Ti" in English for not being confused with "C" pronounced like "see".

It, Sp, Pt,F: Do Re Mi Fa So La Si Do (some syllabies slightly vary e.g. So(l))

English : C D E F G A B C

German : C D E F G A H C

"Moving Do" : Do Re Mi Fa So La Ti Do the syllables only represent the position of the tone within the scale - Do being the first(root) no matter in what key its in

I think "moving" Do must me very hard to get used to when you are Italian, Spanish, Portugese or French because in these languages Do = C and nothing else. The German speakers go with the English but in German b = h.

Hope this is all correct, cheers Stefan

tifoo Sun, 11/02/2008 - 04:00

Here is the latin origins for the name of the notes

Ut queant laxis
Resonare fibris
Mira gestorum
Famuli tuorum
Solve polluti
Labii reatum
Sancte Iohannes

It is from a gregorian song about Saint Jean-Baptiste, that d'arezzo took to get the names.
I can't really translate it well : « Afin que tes serviteurs puissent chanter à gorge déployée tes accomplissements merveilleux, ôte le pêché de leurs lèvres souillées Saint Jean. ».

"For your servitors, to sing well,with full voice, all the good things you made , take off the bad, from their dirty mouth, Saint Jean. " (horrible translation ;o!)

In Gregorian singing,the root would be Do (ut) as first degree.
So the singing would be modal : tonality would be changing but not the name of the notes.(if I remember correctly my "history of music" class...)

Marie-Noëlle Fri, 10/03/2008 - 04:59

One more little "very serious" comment on the "Si" vs "Ti"...

Don't forget that we, latin European countries are from the "old continent".
Sooo, to dare changing the name of a note, defined by a venerable monk some 1000 years ago, taking as reference a holly cantique, would be here, not conceivable, not to say "heretic"...

We are now modern and open minded, but you would have been in big trouble some centuries ago, daring such a thing, and knowing the change was as result as such a Anglo-saxon word as "Tea"! For God's sake! Really so chocking, truly not conceivable!

;o)

Piper Fri, 10/03/2008 - 10:02

www.JohnMarkPiper.com

I think you'd have to go through the process of learning how the concept of "moveable DO" works (and it takes considerable time and effort to do so) in order to understand what this process accomplishes. It's not renaming anything. Maybe a different language but it's also a different concept entirely based on function, not exact note names. Let's move on.

Marie-Noëlle Thu, 10/02/2008 - 15:24

Like in your first ear training exercice! ;o)
This is what I call a funny solfege collective lesson! Terrific! :o)

Marie-Noëlle Thu, 10/02/2008 - 14:40

At least someone is not speaking "chinese" to me! :o)
I mean, sorry John, your knowledge is far too high for me! :o)

tonymiceli Thu, 10/02/2008 - 13:09

yeah, i here students use it in class and they say it's really helpful. now that i thought about it, i used it in sight singing class way back in 1980 i guess it would be.

i'm glad we get to talk about all this!

s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com

Patty Thu, 10/09/2008 - 12:53

Do = C
Di = C#
Re = D
Ri = D#
Mi = E
Fa = F
Fi = F#
Sol= G
Si = G#
La = A
Li = A#
Ti = B
Te = Bb
Le = Ab
Se = Gb
Me = Eb
Ra or Res = Db

Marie-Noëlle Thu, 10/09/2008 - 14:34

Thanks a lot Patty! I was just wondering what those "Fi" and "Ri" may mean! :o)
In "latin Europe" we write:
- "Sib" (pronouncing "Si bémol") for "Bb"
- "Sol#" (pronouncing "Sol dièse) for "G#", etc...
Language, language... :o!

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