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Lyrics/emotional content

gloria krolak 15 October 2010

Players,
As a dedicated music lover, but a non-musician, I have always had these questions and here is a great opportunity to ask them. If these topics have been covered before, I apologize.

How much, if at all, do lyrics affect your playing a tune? Is it important to you to read the lyrics when learning a song, if you don't already know them? How important is it to know the history of the song; if it was written for a movie or play, what the movie/play was about? Or is the emotional content of the tune relayed to you through the notes sufficient?

If a song has very strong emotional content for you, how do you keep that emotion from negatively affecting your playing? How are you able to channel that emotion so it does not overwhelm you, whether the emotion is sad or happy (or anything else)? Some music is so incredibly moving that I tear up just listening. It is hard for me to imagine being the musicians who are playing the song. I think I would lose track of where I am, drop tears all over the music, and have to stop to blow my nose! (See, there are reasons why I can't play or sing.)

gloria (krolak)

Comments

David Friedman Sat, 10/16/2010 - 15:18

Hi Gloria,

To be honest, although I'm fairly familiar with the lyrics of most standards, I rarely think of them when playing the melodies and improvising on them. Most of the the lyrics to popular standards deal with the same topic; love, unrequited and otherwise. I often feel that these lyrics, with, of course, several exceptions, aren't terribly deep.
I'm thinking particularly of tunes like, "A Foggy Day", "Embraceable You", "All the Things You Are",
"The Song is You", "Love and Marriage" (go together like a horse and carriage..yech!)etc. Then there are tunes that may deal with the "love" cliché, but have a kind of ironical slant, like Dave Frishberg's lyrics on tunes like, "Peel Me a Grape", "My Attorney Bernie", etc. They're clever and have a kind of humorous irony. Those lyrics pop up in my mind constantly when playing those tunes. "Lush Life" does the same thing for me. This is probably totally subjective but there you have it.

toddc Sat, 10/16/2010 - 17:58

I'm kind of with Dave on this.
For me words take away the abstraction of music and force me to listen to what Wittgenstein properly labeled as inadequate.

This is not to say words aren't important or have no impact. Of course they do. I love a great speech.
But when words get involved with music its more often about the words than the music. See musicals!!

Music has a far stronger emotional impact on me than words. See symphonic works!!!!
Although I find words in many cases very moving.

Music is certainly the universal language.

Then again: Nothing is so difficult as not deceiving oneself :-)

-Todd

gloria krolak Sun, 10/17/2010 - 19:04

Todd,
Your points are well taken: the examples of musicals v symphonic music. Shostakovich's Fifth Symphony -- who needs words!

On the other hand, being a word person myself -- they're my day job -- the lyrics are usually interesting to me. When I first listened to David Fathead Newman's instrumental rendition of "Ruby," for example, (with Steve Nelson on vibes) I was/am just awestruck with the depth of its sadness. Didn't know the lyrics. Had to look them up. Oooo, Ouch. "Ruby, you're like a flame." Somebody got burned but bad. The lyrics were another layer of the onion.

In the end, though, music takes over where words fail, expressing the inexpressible. I think that is what you are telling me.

thank you for sharing your thoughts,
gloria

toddc Sun, 10/17/2010 - 19:51

Gloria,
I'm not sure what it is but since I was a kid, words in songs seemed to avoid me. I am the only person in my family like this. All others including my kids know all the words to a gazillion show tunes and pop songs and standards. They quote movie lines too. I always envied their ability to do this.

So I get and appreciate why people love words in songs; I just don't have it:(
I really have to work at it.

Todd

tpvibes Mon, 10/18/2010 - 10:55

I tend to be with David and Todd here -- the lyrics tend to pass right through me. I usually say that I like music much more than I like poetry. My son, who's an indie rock bassist, looks at me like I have two heads when I say that. He tends to focus at least as much on the lyrics as the music (maybe even more). Now the lyrics of songs that he likes tend to be deeper than the songs I like, although they still pass through me without me noticing them. I guess with the insipid nature of the lyrics of a lot standard tunes I never developed the habit of listening to them.

But I also tend to think along the lines of what Aaron Copland says in his great book "What to Listen for in Music". He has a short section on vocal music that goes something like -- sure, there are some great pieces of vocal music, but most of the time when words and music combine, the music is there to support the words and usually the quality of the music suffers because of that supporting role.

Tom P.

gloria krolak Sun, 10/17/2010 - 18:26

Hello David,
Thank you for your answer. I understand what you are saying about songs with predictable and not terribly interesting lyrics, moon/June/swoon, etc. It sounds like, for the musicians, they may even get in the way of the music.

I would put Mose Allison in that category of lyrics with clever and ironic lyrics. Some of the Brazilian composers too, say profound things very simply. "Felicidade," for example,
"Sadness has no end
Happiness yes"

I don't know why I thought everyone would come up with a similar answer. What I have learned is that this is a very personal thing with, as I wrote to Behn, no right way, no wrong way. Just A way, your own.

thank you for the insight,
gloria

gloria krolak Sun, 10/17/2010 - 18:10

Marie-Noelle,
Thank you for referring me to Joe Locke's video of "Always A Woman to Me," where he talks about the deep truths revealed in the poetry of the lyrics. I absolutely enjoyed his answer. Sometimes lyrics just knock you (me) off your feet. Remember Roberta Flack's "Killing Me Softly" about just this?

I think Joe answered another part of my original question; a musician may choose songs to play BECAUSE the lyrics say something profound. That's the starting point, or at least one starting point.

You sing? I didn't know that. Is there something I could listen to that you have sung?
gloria

Marie-Noëlle Mon, 10/18/2010 - 09:46

Oh... I though you knew... well nothing terrific!

A few links for you:

- http://www.vibesworkshop.com/node/3064/
- http://www.vibesworkshop.com/node/4162/
- http://www.vibesworkshop.com/node/4150/
- http://www.vibesworkshop.com/node/4157/
- http://www.vibesworkshop.com/node/3546/
- http://www.vibesworkshop.com/node/2637/
- http://www.vibesworkshop.com/node/3485/
- http://www.vibesworkshop.com/node/3648/
- http://www.vibesworkshop.com/node/4017/

M

gloria krolak Mon, 10/18/2010 - 11:01

Marie-Noelle,
I listened to everything you listed there, except for the one with David Friedman which would not load. You have such a beautiful voice, you sing with such purity and clarity. Angelic is the right word, especially after hearing your "Ave Maria." And a wonderful choice of songs too.
Thank you for pointing me to these posts!
If you ever put together a CD I will be in line to buy one, just behind all your other fans here at vibesworkshop.
gloria

Marie-Noëlle Mon, 10/18/2010 - 11:51

A CD?!! Surely not! Most of those tracks were recorded in my Kitchen! And it's great that way! ;o)
Nearly all of them were possible thanks to the site and to the great people playing here !
Thanks a lot for your kind words Gloria... I'm just another "bathroom singer" having fun! :o)
- M

tonymiceli Sat, 10/16/2010 - 00:11

i wish i knew the words to all the tunes i know. i know bits and pieces. but the words are the phrasing and very important to the tune. and the words are beautiful. i try now to listen to singers sing standards because that's where i'll learn the correct melody!

and emotion, well you want to be overwhelmed by the emotion i think. i just learned weaver of dreams, and learned for starters freddie hubbards version from 'reddie freddie'. that was emotionally overwhelming to me. he played it so beautifully!!

somewhere on the site there's a quote that says something like, music is what emotions sound like. or something like that.

gloria krolak Sun, 10/17/2010 - 17:43

Tony,
I think, like Behn's, yours is a great answer. "You want to be overwhelmed by the emotion." If you defend yourself against the emotion, you play a sterile version of the song. That is what I understand from what you wrote. I suppose you learn how to channel that emotion into the energy it takes to play the tune.

I don't know if this is the quote you were thinking of but it fits.

"Music is the shorthand of emotion."
(Leo Tolstoy)
thanks for your input and insight
gloria

djohn Fri, 11/12/2010 - 07:07

Hey Gloria,

Alot has been said about the lyrics, but overwhelming emotions? Hmmm not so much, except for this little mini-thread. It's very interesting to read your answer Tony. I just felt like sharing my view on things here.

First off, Gloria, I absolutely know what you're talking about when you write:

Some music is so incredibly moving that I tear up just listening. It is hard for me to imagine being the musicians who are playing the song. I think I would lose track of where I am, drop tears all over the music, and have to stop to blow my nose!

I feel the same way when listening to some music. Recordings of Etta James, Joni Mitchell, Sophie Hunger, Bob Dylan come to mind. Or Bach Brandenburger Concertos (played with inspiration). Or Burton w/ Piazolla and so so so much more. Often the overwhelm-ment starts before the emotion even arises in me (maybe I'm just a little surpressor). It's like I can feel the eruptions before the lava starts spitting out. If you know what I mean.
If this would happen during playing it would surely get in the way of playing!

Here are my thoughts:

1. inspiration/groove/musicality
At my skill level and playing with the people I play with it's a matter of pure chance, Holy Spirit, the food we had before the gig, the pattern of the waitresses dress, you name it, when we actually become so in tune that music arises. And the kind of emotions we're talking about here only get triggered when music happens, are we agreed?
I'm not talking about certain sounds that trigger fear or something, that's something else entirely – I'm assuming we're talking about emotions that get stirred by sheer beauty. Like the double rainbow guy on youtube.
Moving right along.
But if you listen to lots of recorded music, chances are you're listening to special moments where musicians had a good night, had the right inspiration, found the right "groove". Sure, the more professional you get (and your collaborators) the higher the chances of achieving this level of predictable musicality. (right guys?) And then and only then (IMHO) can these kind of emotions be transported out into the world.

case in point (not the best example, but I've just been working on this tune):
compare this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmW4ShXnywo
to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYXeQUk06wQ

The recording qualities are very different unfortunately. But that's not the only difference IMHO.

2. Outlet for your emotions
When you're playing, the emotions can easily flow through you. You're doing something. Not just sitting in a couch "all alone with your experience". I think it is this that leads to the overwhelming emotional outbursts. There's this enormous energy and you don't have anything to do with it.
What you're doing when you're playing (as opposed to sitting and listening) is strongly connected to the emotions you're feeling. I guess you could say you then have an outlet for the emotions flowing up inside you. The emotions arise through what you're playing and then also influence what you're playing (especially in improv of course, but also in dynamics, phrasing, feeling in playing predetermined lines). They immediately know where to go.

3. Distraction of the mind
Since I'm no pro and haven't been playing much at all, when I do play I'm usually preparing the piece just for the gig and not long enough for it so completely sink in. So when I am playing my mind is still involved. That definitely would hinder my emotions from rising too far to the surface. I could imagine this might change if I ever become more fluent in the language of music (be it vibes or piano or anything else) and don't have to think much anymore when I play. I guess then I might possibly be more at risk when it comes to being overwhelmed emotionally on stage. But wouldn't that be a good show!
But also when I play simple parts that need not so much thought, I'm still very concentrated. All is one. feelings, music playing, listening, movement... I can't imagine having an emotional outburst then. Never happened so far.

That said i certainly often feel a high after playing a jazz gig with lots of funky improv. It's like drugs. Just all the action, activity, and satifaction of playing what you want and feeling the groove arise. Man...


See, there are reasons why I can't play or sing.

So this I don't agree with at all! Maybe singing IS too intense for you - it certainly is the most natural, direct form of expression combining sound with the experience of speech.
If this is really extreme, maybe there are also some fundamental unresolved issues, longings not enough attended, that spring up when you hear or sing the right kind of music? ooo this is getting personal.... forgive me. That's just what comes to mind.

You could always start playing the vibes instead? :-)

So I think that's enough for a forum post.

Chapeau to whoever reads this.
John

PS for anyone interested in the interface of neuroscience and music, arts, emotions. Especially on what kind of emotions are triggered when listening to music. Check out the work of Antonio Damasio. Truly fascinating and counter-cultural.

gloria krolak Mon, 11/15/2010 - 12:47

John,
Wow, you have given me so much to think about. And a whole new perspective. In your paragraph about the outlet for emotions and having a channel for them, that makes so much sense. Funny how that never occurred to me before. Rather than being a "helpless" bystander, you are an active participant, you are doing something about your emotions and that makes all the difference.

The distraction of the mind is easily understood too. I would think that no matter how proficient a musician became, he could never operate on a kind of muscle memory like an athlete. So as long as you're using the thinking part of the brain, it preempts the emotional side from taking charge. I am guessing the ideal is to have both "sides" working, and of course this is way oversimplified; the brain is far too complex to describe it as having only two functions.

I listened to both "Senor Mouse" YouTubes and yes, I heard what you are talking about. I do listen to a lot of music, recorded and live, and know what you speak of when everything clicks. The electricity reaches out into the audience.

I will look up Antonio Damasio on this subject. Thanks!

As far as singing or any musicality on my part: I always read that children love the sound of their mother's voice, no matter what. So I used to sing to my sons when they were babies, even though I was no Linda Ronstadt. One night, sitting in our rocking chair together at bedtime and singing "All I want is loving you and music, music, music," this tiny little hand reached up and covered my mouth. He wasn't old enough to say, "Don't sing, Mom" (which he eventually did learn). A moment right out of a Marx Brothers movie.

I thank you John for your thought-ful response for another reason. It also was a really good introduction to you and your music. If you have any recordings please let me know.
I listened to "The Wave" on your website, one of my favorites of Jobim's. Well done! And being able to share the stage with your grandfather. How cool is that!

best,
gloria

behng Sat, 10/16/2010 - 12:30

Usually, I try to learn the lyrics to songbook tunes. Of course, it's really hard to do that with all of them because there's so many. Because of that, I tend to learn the words to the songs that I like the melodies to the most. Then there's other songs where I learn just by hearing a great instrumentalist play it over and over again. For example, I think Gershwin's "I Got Rhythm" is kind of a corny tune. But when I hear Sonny Stitt play it, I love it because he's such a bad mo fo! At the same time, I think Gershwin's "Soon" is a beautiful song, so I listen to Ella sing it a bunch and really try to internalize the lyrics and mood of it. So for me, I guess it depends on the tune, but I really think it's important to at least have a certain amount of tunes that you can get deep inside. You can't fully accomplish that until you know the "whole" tune, especially the lyrics.

gloria krolak Sun, 10/17/2010 - 17:37

Hi Behn,
I was going to try to reply to everyone's posts in one answer but couldn't figure out how to do that, so I will respond to each one. First, thank you for replying. It sounds like the answer is pretty personal; there is no one way or right way or wrong way.
Behn, I can easily understand what you said about internalizing the lyrics and mood. They're there but you don't need to think consciously about them when you play the song because the song, it seems, has become a kind of package that includes many different pieces. Hope I paraphrased that okay. This really helped me to understand how you can do what you do.
So amazing!
gloria

behng Sun, 10/17/2010 - 18:47

Yeah, exactly. I learn the words to grab the essence of the tune. I don't think of words as I play each note or anything like that! But they certainly help give me an essence of the song. Also, lyrical knowledge helps to phrase the melody correctly. This helps avoid "faking" the melody. In addition, listening to other instruments and singers can help vibes players avoid alot of senseless exercise work. While I think technical practice is important, nothing helps you play with good tone production and a legato feel better than LISTENING to someone else who does it well! Better than practicing a scale for an hour, which doesn't do much in my opinion.

John Keene Sun, 10/17/2010 - 17:53

I probably don't know the complete lyrics to any of the songs I play, but I think that I know what the song is about content-wise. To my taste, playing certain tunes too fast turn them into parodies instead of songs. A song like "All The Things You Are" really bugs me to hear it at hyperspeed; it turns the song into a technical exercise if one has any memory of the lyrics at all. Whereas a strict instrumental tune carries no baggage at all for me regarding tempo.

gloria krolak Sun, 10/17/2010 - 19:07

Well, you've added another facet I hadn't thought of -- tempo. If you are going to be true to the song, you need to know what it means before you change the tempo drastically. If there are no lyrics then it matters a lot less, or not at all.
got it,
gloria

angelo (not verified) Tue, 10/19/2010 - 00:33

Gloria, throughout all of my years, I really don't have any connection with lyrics, whatsoever.
Lyrics are a beautiful expression of characters within a given related venture and everyone has to respect the vocalist who has to put in as many hours of practice, same as we musicians, and when vocalizing, you can see their whole body and soul "get into each and every song they sing". We musicians, do the very same thing and at times we close our eyes as we strike each note with the mallet or use a pick or place your fingers so gently on the keyboard.

The melody line of note values within each measure does not want any interference with it's sentimental values. It's intention is, "to give the listener a flowing strain" that puts one into a world of beautiful feelings and has a magical way for changing the surrounding area to fit their "immediate moment of memories!".

Almost every weekend that I perform at the restaurant, I compose a melody line for my good returning patrons, play the theme in their honor and then give them a copy of the song plus a CD that I create. Never has there been any lyrics aboard and they want that tune played whenever they come in because it has established a moment of memory, with affection.

Lyrics are a prime factor for shows, sing-a-longs, etc., and often cause a change to be made for a melody line whenever words have to be the leading "factor".

Angelo.

gloria krolak Tue, 10/19/2010 - 10:47

Guys,
It is amazing to me and a real education that for many musicians, like yourselves, the lyrics are so unimportant and can actually get in your way sometimes. I see that you have much respect for singers and what they do, but your focus is solely on the sound of the music. I am so word oriented that it is can be hard for me to identify a song playing if there are no lyrics I can mentally attach to it.
Thank you for helping me to see things from your perspectives. No right way, no wrong way, just YOUR way.
Angelo, that is very sweet for you to compose a melody for a person in your audience. Lucky folks!
For my radio show I am often looking for tunes with vibraphone and singing -- two hours of all instrumental music might be taxing for some listeners. And it is a challenge. November's show is all instrumental with the exception of the very last song. If you have a chance to listen, let me know what you think about that.
thanks again!
gloria

Good Vibes
www.jazzon2.org
Sunday, November 7, 1010
8-10 pm EST

rebroadcast
Wednesday, November 10, 2010
4-6 pm EST

John Keene Tue, 10/19/2010 - 11:07

Gloria,

There is an album called Individually Twisted with Debbie Harry singing with the Jazz Passengers. You can sample the tracks to hear excerpts, and buy a new copy for two dollars or a used copy for forty-one cents if it suits your program. Shipping extra, of course.

http://www.amazon.com/Individually-Twisted-Jazz-Passengers/dp/B000004CV…

There is also the Gary Burton album with Rebecca Parris at a tremendously discounted price. Five-star review by Amazon customers.

http://www.amazon.com/Its-Another-Day-Gary-Burton/dp/B0000001T8/ref=sr_…

angelo (not verified) Tue, 10/19/2010 - 11:42

Gloria, I will always add comments in a "very respectable" manner and try to pass on my peronal findings in this world so that every vocalist, musician or even a DJ, can learn that nothing that you do wrong is always 100% wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

For your radio show or any other performance, it's not the instrumentation that makes people like or dislike the music. It is the responsibility of the performer to organize a well balanced selection of different rhythym styles that immediately change the "atmosphere" sounds.
In my 70+ years of playing the mandolin, guitar and vibraphone professionally, I have had the pleasure of "backing up" the best of vocalists, but if the attending audience is non-attentive, their itinerary of singing 10 songs could be reduced to only 4 or 5 and the atmosphere is chanmge to all instrumentation that "sooths the patrons".

In the past 8 years, I have been playing "solo vibes", without one vocal and the people enjoy the vaRious selections (mostly requested). Sometimes, a passing vocalist might come in and sit in with me and sing maybe only 2 songs, beofre everyone starts talkng and ignoring the "efforts' of the vocalist (I get very mad at this). When this happens, I turn my gig into a "practice" session and maybe play one melody for 15 minutes.

Always try to "hang loose" for each and every gig, because 99% of the time, your last minute changes will always get you to your destination.

Angelo.

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