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What are the bars made of?

toddc 23 January 2010

1.What are vibraphone bars made of? Type of aluminum?
2.How does Musser make the bars?
3.How do you tune the bars?
4.What is the best alloy for bars?
5.What would be wrong with using 2" wide bars on all bars?

tia,
Todd

Comments

tonymiceli Sat, 01/23/2010 - 16:24

anyone know where it is??

at the upcoming holland workshop, nico does a class on bars and actually makes one in front of us. it's amazing.

did you know that you can LOWER the pitch by taking metal off. you would think only when you add metal, but when you take it off the end the bar vibrates at more of a distance thus lowering the tone.

that class was amazing!

------------------------
Tony Miceli
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BarryK Sat, 01/23/2010 - 16:47

A lot of this info is in "Acoustics of Bar Percussion Instruments" (c)1970, by James L. Moore, Ph.D.
http://www.steveweissmusic.com/product/2762/bookshelf-books

1. The Musser bars are obtained from the Aluminum Company of America (ALCOA) and is known as material #2024-T4. I'd be interesting in knowing the Deagan material.
2. According to the book, the widths come from the manufacturer, and the bars are cut to length.
3. Very carefully ;-). If you want more background, I recommend getting this book. There is a lot of info on tuning. I've never done it myself though. If you are making your own resonators, they have to be tuned too. Nico posted an EXCELLENT article on tuning:
http://www.vibesworkshop.com/story/bars-resonators-their-behaviour-and-…
see also: http://www.vibesworkshop.com/book/vanderplas-baileo-vibe-book/nico/1006…
4. Don't know. Whatever Deagan used ;-) (that's just my preference).
5. Don't know. My guess has to do with the frequencies of the upper partials (i.e., the bars won't sound as good with wider bars at the top end).

Barry

tpvibes Sat, 01/23/2010 - 17:41

Hi Todd,

Barry's right, if you want to do anything in this area, then Moore's book is a great resource. For a short summary of the highlights on what it says on bars, check out the Wikipedia vibraphone article section on bars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibraphone) -- pretty much all of that info comes from Moore's book.

Moore's book can be ordered from Steve Weiss percussion and maybe other places.

Tom P.

tpvibes Sat, 01/23/2010 - 21:31

Hi Tony,

It was a pretty easy read as I remember it -- although my idea of an easy physics read might not be the same as others. If you're at all mechanically inclined you'll definitely enjoy it.

Tom P.

BarryK Sun, 01/24/2010 - 09:36

I agree with Tom. It is readable. It would be nice if you understood what a wavelength was and understood that sounds are made of multiple frequencies. I think I knew that stuff from high school science.

Barry

Piper Sat, 01/23/2010 - 23:01

LOVE and resonators. Yep. Love and resonators are the secret ingredients that must be in the mix or the bars will sound like cold shallow pieces of tuned aluminum (no matter what you do). Someone has to love that sound and make a dedicated, tedious, commitment to producing a sound that is warm, beautiful and complex in order to make something special. AND, they must apply it to 40 percent bars and 60 percent resonators.

It's like following a recipe. You can put all the right ingredients into a great soufflé but if you don't put love into making it, it's not going to come out right.

edmann Mon, 03/01/2010 - 09:58

I do not agree with John on the sound of bars sans resonators. I love the sound of my Deagan w/pickups. Every time I come off stage I get comments on how great the vibes sound. But John has manufacturing and design experience so...apparently it is subjective. Love ya, John!

toddc Mon, 03/01/2010 - 14:07

In the ealry 70's CBS made an experimental electric vibraphone called a malletron (if I remember correctly). It was not professional grade apparently and it never went to mfg. I got to mess around with it for about a year. Clair Musser and some pros had input into it. The prototypes were lost or stolen. They used pickups under smaller width bars. As a kid I thought it was awesome. I've been hoping one would show up some day but with no luck.

I like the pickup idea :)

tonymiceli Mon, 03/01/2010 - 14:14

there was a way, to put a rail and have it 1 inch from each bar and pick up the sound that way.

or a rail with springs or something and you mount the rail and the pick ups go up to the nodes. you know what i mean? so that you take the rail and the pick ups off each time.

------------------------
Tony Miceli
www.tonymiceli.com (new)
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
tony@tonymiceli.com
www.facebook.com/people/Tony-Miceli/604414578
http://twitter.com/tonymiceli
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edmann Mon, 03/01/2010 - 14:46

Hey Tony,

I think the only way to do what you are talking about is with a magnetic pickup, such as Musser used to make. If you cover your mouth and talk, that is what they sounded like thru a regular PA or keyboard amp. For some reason, people used to use Ampeg bass amps with this pickup and man did that sound muffled. But the critical difference - IMO - is that with this type of wound-coil magnetic pickup, you need an amp that is designed for it, like guitarists need guitar amps. I saw someone on ebay selling those magnetic pickups about a month ago. Now, 30 years later for me and with a lot of engineering and sound design experience, I think that magnetic pickups put thru a pre-amp that is matched to their impedance and output would get a very reasonable sound. Further, magnetic pickup elements are available everywhere now, and cheap. It would not be that difficult to make your own pickup bar for the M55, this way you can remove the bars after each gig and still have pickups. I have heard a few prototypes based on this design and the sound is quite good. No wires from the bars!

BarryK Mon, 03/01/2010 - 20:24

My question about pickups (piezo, magnetic, optical, or other transducer) is, are they able to pick up all of the modes of vibrations of the bars (i.e., partials)? I am guessing not. Would multiple pickups per bar help get closer to the full vibraphone sound?

Barry

edmann Tue, 03/02/2010 - 09:55

My opinion based on the pickup-installed Deagan vibes I have is that the right piezo element, properly installed, picks up everything that is going on with the bar. I can get harmonics to fundamentals easily if I play it that way. Dead strokes are to die for! Pun ok. Mallet changes are under-the-microscope apparent. If you are using or experimenting with magnetic pickups, the position under the bar may matter...but that technology is so far underdeveloped that I would not want to say for sure based on what I have heard.

tonymiceli Mon, 03/01/2010 - 21:14

it seems to me, get the mic close to the bars and you're cool. i wouldn't like the muffled sound, i would like to have my vibes sound like my vibes. know what i mean? have you heard examples of that??

------------------------
Tony Miceli
www.tonymiceli.com (new)
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
tony@tonymiceli.com
www.facebook.com/people/Tony-Miceli/604414578
http://twitter.com/tonymiceli
http://www.myspace.com/tonymicelivibes

edmann Tue, 03/02/2010 - 09:50

the problem with mics - aside from floor monitors bleeding into them louder than the vibes itself (thus very little vibes or no in the monitor stage mix) - is there is no way to get even distribution of sound on a mallet instrument. The mic is always closer to some bars/resonators and farther away from others. In intimate (= no monitors) small stage acoustic band setting where the vibes can be heard acoustically by the player and other musicians too, mics not such a problem. Of cvourse this all implies one is playing traditional jazz format. For any players who prefer to develop into new styles that are electronics-based, you have to have pickups otherwise you have the whole band in your samples/loops/etc.

tonymiceli Tue, 03/02/2010 - 15:35

so ed you're saying that that would work.

i have picks and will be using them again this month with the mallet kat.

however, what i would rather NOT have is the pick up sound we have now. i want the instrument sound. the acoustic sound. you're saying that that's not possible at all? even with guitar style pick up system??

------------------------
Tony Miceli
www.tonymiceli.com (new)
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
tony@tonymiceli.com
www.facebook.com/people/Tony-Miceli/604414578
http://twitter.com/tonymiceli
http://www.myspace.com/tonymicelivibes

edmann Wed, 03/03/2010 - 14:01

Hi Tony

the sound, you know it is all subjective. The mag pickups on the marimba that I heard - sounded very real. Well, it is real, it is the real bar. The vibes would be an experiment but in my gut I know it would work. Of all the pickup systems I have heard (I have not heard Nico's), Deagan's is by far the best. Properly preamped and thru a good keyboard amp or PA, to me, it sounds just like the vibes, and it feels like it too and hundreds of people have come to me unsolicited and mentioned the same. I can play the vibes and feel normal. Again it is subjective and I think there are always tradeoffs. But if you are on a stage with floor monitors I do not see how there is any other alternative than pickups. When you cannot hear yourself and no one else on stage can hear you either because the mics are so sensitive and the floor monitors are so loud - in my experience no music happens. This is why I turn down gigs where I would have to play an acoustic vibes on that kind of stage, it makes me look bad. No one in the crowd knows or cares what technical problems may exist, they just want to hear it. and when they don't? Wow - it can get vicious. That's what I found out.:-0 :-)

edmann Tue, 03/02/2010 - 10:00

Hi Tony

I guess I was not clear in my magnetic pickup spiel - a magnetic pickup connected to the proper preamp which is same as that for an electric guitar will not sound muffled. The missing element back in the early Musser pickup days was the right preamp/amp. Guitar preamp technology is so far advanced now that I presume you could get a great vibes sound from magnetics. I recently heard a marimba that was done with magnetics - it sounds great!

KeithScott Thu, 03/04/2010 - 18:16

Ed:

The magnetic pickups that you speak of were designed by Jess Oliver, both for Musser and Deagan models. His contact info is as follows:

Jess Oliver lives in the New York area. He is also available for amp and speaker consultation, and is currently taking in amps and speakers for repair. He can be reached at his New York shop via email or phone at: Oliversoundco@aol.com or tel. 516-799-5267
Please call before 5PM eastern time.

Talking to him about the proper matching preamp/amp combo for his old pickup design might be enlightening. He also happens to be the designer of B15N Portaflex bass amplifier, he used to work for Ampeg.

edmann Mon, 03/01/2010 - 09:54

When we developed and built the Sonor VB500 I insisted on Deagan alloy - so we scraped a bit from my Deagan axe and my Musser axe and sent the samples off for analysis - the results: The Same alloy! I was surprised. So I guess it is in the design of the bar itself, the finish, and perhaps even the method of tuning of harmonics that results in the difference in sound between the 2 manufacturers.

This guys says that creating bars is easy and inexpensive: http://www.buildavibraphone.com

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