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Using Yamaha bars on a Musser frame

Steve Shapiro 11 October 2010

Hey everyone,

I seem to remember a discussion about this a while back. I'm pretty sure the Yamaha bars will fit on a M-55 or a Century. But has anyone experimented with it? Do the holes for the cord line up properly? And if I put my A440 Yamaha bars on a Musser, will it sound good? (I alternate 440/442 bars all the time with the same Yamaha resonators, no problem). Does the whole Musser instrument just "sound better" with its original bars? I know this is subjective, but I am trying to be as OBJECTIVE as possible, based on the original sound of each instrument using the factory bars.

Thanks!
Steve

Comments

tonymiceli Tue, 10/12/2010 - 15:23

i did this a while back. i barely remember it. but i think we did musser bars on a yamaha and it sounded good as i remember. but it's pretty vague. is it just for a gig?

Steve Shapiro Tue, 10/12/2010 - 16:37

Hey Tony,

Thanks for the feedback... It's a record session w/some heavies. Producer wanted me to bring a vibe, but it's the worst possible place in midtown to unload during the day. So gonna rent an instrument (likely a Musser) & bring a set of bars. I also really love having polished bars cause of the slightly smoother feel for dampening. But there is also piano, so the 440/442 tuning thing is a consideration. I had one bad experience where the piano tuner tried to put the piano at 442 to match the vibes. The piano wasn't used to that tuning, wouldn't hold, and just ended-up sounding bad. Now I always think it is best to tune the piano where it is happy, and if it sounds good with itself, a 2 cent difference with the vibes won't be too noticeable. But having some 440 bars available ain't a bad plan, either. Hmm, pros feel free to chime in about this. I'd appreciate it. (...although NOT to re-open that whole tuning thread, yikes!!).

Steve

tonymiceli Tue, 10/12/2010 - 16:49

got it. rent it. you can't rent one that you like?

what is the piano tuned to?

who are the heavies????

i can't stand out of tune vibes and piano. not cool. so i would make sure about that. i was in a studio where some great vibe players recorded and the vibes were 442 and the piano was 440. i can't believe (according to the engineer) that it never bothered any one. i brought my own bars just in case and i was glad i had them.

bob leatherbarrow Tue, 10/12/2010 - 19:31

Hi Tony & Steve-
I want to chime in here and let you know that the Yamaha bars are longer than the Musser bars, so they won't sit in the slots correctly. They are the same width, but from the middle of the instrument down they get longer - I've tried it and they don't fit. As for the 440vs442 business, it does matter. I have both, I need both and I think that it is on a session like this that you will hear it - (my 440 bars saved me on a Nelly Furtado session, for example). if you can know where the piano is before you go in, that's ideal of course, but not always possible. It is only 2 cents off, but things blend a lot better if it's right. If I'm going in and I don't know, I default with 440s.
Anyway, Steve, congrats and best of luck on the dates- Tony, the site is rockin', keep up the great work on it--
Best, Bob L.

Steve Shapiro Tue, 10/12/2010 - 22:01

Many thanks, Bob!

This is really helpful, man.. and also what I was afraid of. I think I'll either be sure to get a Yamaha frame, or find an A=440 set of Mussers. And I really do agree about the tuning - 2 cents off is still off. It depends on the material, but the real nightmare is when blending with synth and electric keyboards (probably your Nellie Furtado situation). Despite my earlier comments, I am very particular about tuning (ever notice how much better everything sounds when the bassist has good intonation?). It just feels much better when it is dead-on. Frankly, this has been SUCH a hassle ever since the manufacturers started delivering all the instruments at A=442. Grrrr. Now, when you rent or borrow an instrument you don't know what tuning you will get. And if they leave the set you wanted at the Philharmonic rehearsal and swap a different one, you are hosed.

bob leatherbarrow Thu, 10/14/2010 - 13:45

hey Tony-
mine definitely do not fit. maybe the older yamahas had different-sized bars, I don't know - but the 3910 (which I have) and the 3710 have the same bars and they are longer in the lower register than the musser- I know yamaha reformulated and improved their bars when they came out with these models, maybe they changed the size too. any yamaha experts out there that might know? anyway, It would be cool to be able to put yamaha bars on a musser frame - the 55 is still the easiest to carry and set up, and it would help with traveling-- if you remember how you did this, let me know- b.

angelo (not verified) Wed, 10/13/2010 - 21:07

Steve, No doubt you have seen Tony Miceli's site remarks on my new modified Yamaha YV2700, that reduced the weight to one-half and I only have to carry the bottom framework, the keybed and the resonators along with the bars in a separate bag with wheels.

Obviously, you want to switch the bars and resonators to the Musser frame because it may appear to be lighter. Let me ask, "are you transporting the vibes in a Van where you can leave the instrument in tact, or do you have a small SUV to dismantle and carry in the many small elements?

Contact Tony Miceli and he'll send you my videos on the new framework. As it stands, I purposely have made the bottom framework, sides and footpedal assembly into one element. We intend to modify my design for an additional breakdown.

Keep in touch with Tony because we (including Gary), are working on making the entire instrument lighter for transporting. Mike Ponti sat in with me a few weeks ago and he played my current modified set,plus, we discussed a lot of new ideas.

Angelo

Steve Shapiro Thu, 10/14/2010 - 22:25

Hi Angelo,

Yes, I saw your frame redesign - very nice indeed. I have a YV2700, but I don't transport it. I use a YV3910 for travel. I like that it breaks down and fits in any car, like the M48. But the resonators are ridiculously heavy... can we redesign those? How about paper maché!

Tony & Bob, I recall the length problem that Bob mentioned. So no interchangeability... but ps., I got the rental company with the Yamaha to get more competitive on price w/the cartage. With the bad economy, they were happy to oblige.

Steve Shapiro Thu, 10/14/2010 - 22:25

Hi Angelo,

Yes, I saw your frame redesign - very nice indeed. I have a YV2700, but I don't transport it. I use a YV3910 for travel. I like that it breaks down and fits in any car, like the M48. But the resonators are ridiculously heavy... can we redesign those? How about paper maché!

Tony & Bob, I recall the length problem that Bob mentioned. So no interchangeability... but ps., I got the rental company with the Yamaha to get more competitive on price w/the cartage. With the bad economy, they were happy to oblige.

angelo (not verified) Fri, 10/15/2010 - 11:04

Steve, I have been doing a lot of research for many years on enlightening the resonators and have just about reached a conclusion on how I'll invest to come up with the answer. I have been discussing this with Tony Miceli and Gary B.

As for paper mache, etc., I have been that route and yes, it can be done but, but in the long run, the weather and rough handling defeats the purpose. (I have checked out all of the paper products and even cloth materials, along with the PVC's).

Working with my wonderful machinist buddy, my final plans for the resonator tubing, will be of a "rigid plastic" with a thin wall thickness and my plans will have threaded bottom caps that will be an "interior fitted assembly" that will give the vibraphonist the ability to "tune" each tube relatively to his instrument. Of the 18 set of vibes, that I have had throughout the years, I found that the manufacturer's name doesn't make the sound better. It's all in the molecular structure of the respective bars and resonators, the tuning of the tubes and the enclosures of the sides that actually, add to the quality of projected sounds.

Over the years that I have finally been able to cut the weight of my YV2700 framework, I have invested over $10,000 hard-earned dollars. I modified the frames of a "TAMA" and 2 "Yamaha 1600 sets", before the current set. So at this point, the cost of plastic material is quite high for what I desire and believe me, there is a lot of precision machine shop tooling devices required to perform all of the necessary steps. (Very costly).

Steve, in the end, every vibraphonist will be able to utilize all of his sets on hand, have them turned over to a machinist like my good friend and spend a few bucks to have the weights cut in half, through modifications that we have incorporated already.

Keep your ideas coming because they all have a value. It's my pleasure to talk to you and everyone concerned about our subject of discussion.

Angelo.

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