Well I just got a loan for some vibes. I want the M48 in gold with a motor. Musser advertises them as the silver having the motor and the Gold doesnt. :/
YOu can get the M55 in gold - it's the M55G model, and I recommend spending the extra $15 to download Piper's M-brace schmatic and building a set of leg braces to protect the frame. You can get it direct from Piper.
Tony is only slightly right about the silver getting the chicks. If you want to get chick who are YOUR age, go with gold.
The picture shown in the link does not display the actual Piper M-brace, but it IS a vast improvement on the original design. Also, I didn't know that it is height-adjustable now, so that is also a vast improvement as well.
To address Joe's other question about the motor, I'm pretty sure that all Mussers offer the motor as an option now, whereas back when I bought mine it was included. Tastes have changed in the last 30 years, so it makes sense to make the motor optional now. I'm nearly positive that James Shipp plays a M48 with a motor, so it's definitely something that can be added to the instrument.
so whats so bad about the m48? i figure that portability is good, plus the resonators look a whole lot better. Gary Burton uses it so it can't be too bad. The cases for the m55 are expensive as hell. I'm a bit confused.
cool i always was a bit scared and i want to have gold bars because i thought of the chicks....then i got special offer for a m55 with silver bars and took it.i love the look of the vibes now.and my girlfriend always says silver looks better then gold.gold looks more showy but the girls like it subtile :).
i would recommend to all people using any musser instrument no matter m58 or 48 to replace the damper with nicos silicon damper. this really solved all the problems i got with my m55 and for me its the nearly the perfect instrument now. the other thing i don´t like is the shape of the upper resonator tubes. they have this half moon (at least mine, i dont know if the newer m55 models have the same)cause back in the days musser thought this will look more cool. its just extra weight to carry and stupid in my opinion.i always thought to replace them with nicos help and make the design of the m48 resonators but this is just a minor problem. of course i would like to have also a vanderplas (nico, i love you) cause they sound great and they have this extra octave but this would be only a luxurus issue.no real need. in germany there is a company that built soft cases for the m55 and m48 which are also perfect.they are so light but protect well.here is the link: http://www.percussion-bags.de/
I have an m48 and love it. I gig a lot with it and it holds together fine for me. It does have dampening issues. But they aren't terrible and proper placement can help alot.
The biggest reason to get it is the portability. I put most of the pieces into a large duffle bag along with half the resonators. The sides and other half of resonators I just carry loose. This makes the instrument fit into the trunk of a jetta and then you can still carry 4 passengers. or a bass and 2 passengers.
Now if I was not worried about space I would get a more solid frame (m-55). Plus, since the m-48s resonators break in half the fans get all sorts of messed up and can be annoying to maintain so they dont make noise.
so again if transportation is not an issue go for the m-55 but if you need to transport it in smaller vehicles then I like the m-48 alot...
I got mine from lonestar percussion about 10 years ago and it came with a motor.
which one is faster to set up. I really like the look of the M48 and the portability. I dont like the way the M55 looks. I figure they sound the same.
My deal is, I drive a truck but I have been using the Century vibe so I always have to bum help from people to pick it up and take it out of my truck. I want to be able to have mine in cases and be able to move it by myself. My gigs are picking up. Im booked twice a week for 2 months (Freaking awesome, never had so many gigs in my life). So i need to get my instrument soon
What sucks about this is that I need to make a decision within a few hours.
In that case, Joe, think about this as a possible expense-saving temporary solution.
If you drive a truck and can strap your Century so it doesn't move, you might want to consider a ramp of some kind to roll it in and out of your truck. If you do a google search on truck ramps (including wheelchair ramps), you might find something to your liking. Good ramps are expensive, but a lot less expensive than a new vibe.
The next investment is a set of new casters that are larger than the stock Musser casters. Bill Youhass at Fall Creek Marimbas sells the vanderPlas casters.
I wouldn't recommend this if you're going on the road, but for local gigs where you can move in and out quickly this might work for you. The time you spend breaking down and packing up is also the time you could be making contact with all the girls who dig gold vibraphones.
The century vibe isnt mine. It belongs to my school and I have to borrow it. Ladies dont like a guy who drives his parents car and they dont like a vibe player who plays his schools vibes. Also, strapping vibes down is not something I like. I cant find a good way to strap it down without messing up the frame in some way.
I really need my own vibes.
set up time isnt THAT much of an issue. I dont mind taking a few minutes to put stuff together.-Joe Doubleday
In that case, I see your point. I would tend to agree with Mike Pinto that the M48 is probably the way to go for your needs. I have a feeling that Mike takes exceptionally good care of his instrument when moving it, so I think his advice is solid.
i have the setup time down to 11 minutes if I'm in a hurry with the m-48. I think I did 8 minutes once.
I wonder if you can get the frame for the m-55 that tony likes so much and the resonators from the 48 since you don't want the large resonators? All the newer ones fit with each other just fine.
good luck!
(also check with local high schools, you never know when they are getting new instruments and wanting to get rid of old ones. You can offer them next to nothing and they might bite. I don't even want to say how much I got a perfect century for all because it had a few scratches in it...!)
what's important is you take all this information and make a good decision. whatever you do will be great because you'll have a new great set of vibes!
I would say it's a tough call between the 55 and the 48, each has pros and cons. I will start by saying that I designed both the 55 and the 48. I started my road travel in 1963 with George Shearing's band. The only professional model vibraphones then were either the Musser Century or the Deagan Aurora. Both were large and cumbersome. I did 312 days on the road with Shearing in 1963, carrying around five cases weighing 265 pounds to get my Century to the gigs. It took me about twenty minutes to set up the thing. In 1964 I started touring with Stan Getz and realized that I had many years ahead of me lugging these cases around. I noted that Musser made a smaller keyboard student model called, I think, the One-Niter. I went to Musser and convinced them to make the same design but with a full size keyboard. They were skeptical because the new instrument didn't look as solid and nice as the Century. But, it caught on immediately and quickly became the most popular model. It was and is available in silver and gold, and eventually they began to offer it with or without a motor (for those of us who don't have a use for the motor). The cases for the 55, two large and one small one for the bars, are a bit unwieldy but would still fit into the trunk of a larger car of the 60's. So, if I was ever stranded upon arrival in a new city, I could always count on a taxi getting me where I needed to go.
That began to change in the 70's and 80's. Cars kept getting smaller. I worried over this for sometime and watched Milt Jackson, traveling with a full size instrument, always being at the mercy of helpers to deal with his cases. At one time he traveled with the entire instrument in one huge case requiring a team of lifters to carry it and shipping it air freight. Besides the car problem with the 55 cases, there is also the airplane issue. Over time, the airlines became more strict about checking items that are oversize or over a certain weight (70 pounds is the usual top limit). So, while riding in the car on a long road trip, I starting thinking up a design that would be more portable. My tour manager then was very handy at carpentry (he now teaches cabinet-making at a school in Boston). I drew up the design and sent him to Chicago to collect the necessary parts and pieces from Musser to make a prototype. They also were helpful in creating the resonators that lock together, and a few other custom pieces.
Dennis built the first model of what would become the 48 and I started using it for touring. I found a local case maker in Boston to make 2 cases that are about the size of large luggage, so they would pass muster at airline checkin. We discovered a few weaknesses with the first go around and model number two was an improvement, the frame steadier, etc. Musser asked me if they should consider manufacturing a model based on my design and at first I said no. If only a handful of traveling professionals would have a use for a portable version, then they wouldn't sell enough to justify taking it on. But, over the first year or two, I had many people interested in the design, and eventually Musser decided to make it available, and now the 48 has become their most popular model.
I also consulted with Yamaha during a visit to Japan in the mid-80's. They had started making vibraphones, having bought the Deagan company around that time, and they were interested in a more portable model, too. I showed them how I had designed the instrument and made suggestions that they might try. As a result, the design of their model is quite similar to the Musser 48. I think the main difference between the Yamaha and Musser instruments is in the bars. Yamaha wanted to follow on with the Deagan approach to the bars (a thinner, drier sound that sustains a bit longer, versus a fatter mellower tone with the Musser). I tried to talk them out of that but they were committed already when it came to the bar manufacturing.
Now, my opinion as to the pros and cons between the 55 and 48. The 55 is definitely more sturdy and the keyboard is fixed in place so it is less liable to be out of adjustment for dampening, etc. However, there's no getting around the fact that it is a challenge for traveling. So, if you are not taking the instrument out much, the 55 seems the right choice. The 48, due to the many interconnecting parts, is more prone to needing adjustment. For instance, currently I use a little wedge of folded paper in the third rail to slightly raise it to the best positioning for the damper bar. I also do something on each new 48 frame I get to make it easier to set up. Instead of using the holes to bolt the end pieces to the legs, I take a hack saw and create slots where the holes are, so I don't have to unscrew the nuts on the end pieces all the way. Just loosen them and slide the end piece off or on. Saves a couple of minutes. I can set up my 48 in about 5-6 minutes and tear in down in maybe 4. I can also do it in the dark, when necessary (lol).
Yes, the 48 is not perfect, but I have been using one for twenty-some years now with great satisfaction. And, you can't beat the portability. I can check in on any airplane, the cases fit in many standard auto trunks (I currently have a Toyota Solara convertible, and the entire instrument goes in there just perfectly).
Finally, I'll have to leave it to others to comment on the chick magnet potential of the vibraphone since I play on another team.
i think for running around in a car and doing gigs the 55 is fast to set up. my rig is easy to move around. i can set that up in about 5 minutes. i do doubles and triples and run all over to eek out a living!!
i guess if you're on a plane that's a different story.
i spent the last 2 years working with biener bags to create soft cases for the m-55 and other models. it's done and they're great. so keep that option in mind. the hard cases are the real deal, you can bang them all over. the soft ones can fit into small cars though.
man, thanks for chiming in gary! I'm curious about what you(or anyone) think of the dampener felt for the newer models vs ones 10 or more years ago? I have one that is so soft and dampens really nice but on new models the dampener feels really hard and seems to give a more hard dampen as apposed to the gradual lighter dampening from a fluffy pad.....am I imagining this or does anyone else notice that?
It always makes me feel cool to get a reply from the man who inspired me to listen to more jazz.
I have decided to take one more day to make sure that I make the right decision. I'm definitely leaning toward the 48. I do take it out often. I have 4 gigs this week and I have to use the Century vibe at these and I can hardly get them through the door. I feel like I'm rolling them half a mile on a brick sidewalk.
I will take Tony's suggestion with the Rock and Roller.
So I have another question that I know will bring up some more controversy, but it's something I need to know...
Should I get the Bars in A442 or A440? I've always played A442 with no problem (I don't have perfect pitch so I can't tell). I dont plan on using them for any orchestral things. My school has 4 Century Vibes all tuned to A442. So If I get A440 I don't think I could use it in percussion ensemble. I've used to the A442 for a year now doing gigs (I'm fairly new to the professional side of the vibraphone) and no one has ever said a word to me about it. But I think i want to really be in tune with the groups I play in. ha.
Also keep in mind, I plan on being at this school for only this year and hopefully I make it into a different school to pursue a jazz vibraphone degree (don't care so much about the title of having a degree, I just want the skills). So the percussion ensemble aspect is just a minor issue.
I've read some other threads on TheVibe.net but I figured I could get some feedback here
Mr. Burton, I have many friends that play on the other team (my school has a huge dance and vocal program, Kristin Chenowith went to my school) but they always seem to know the best way to impress a lady.
I've been a holdout for 440, but I'm becoming more and more convinced we're moving into a 442 world. I remember the discussion on the vibenet several years back, but things may have changed since then.
I think the only instruments that I can think of where the pitch can't be moved is a piano (unless you're willing to retune it at your expense), and Hammond organs and accordions (many of which are now 442). I would think that you can tell a band to strobe-tune to 442, and most organists you encounter are going towards digital instruments that can be tuned to 442 (my Hammond does). So that leaves piano, but I tend to think that most vibes players in the current age are going to be hired instead of a pianist rather than in addition to one.
My vote would be to go 442, but I'll be really curious to know what other people think and if I'm in the minority.
As a sidenote, I asked one the section leaders of the Cincinnati Symphony to confirm if the orchestra tuned to 442 since I have a 442 accordion for symphony pops gigs. He said the CSO tuned to 441, and I asked what difference it made. His reply was, "Man, we actually have had MEETINGS over 441 vs 442."
I dare say I have had more experience dealing with tunings than any other vibist, given that I play numerous concerts every year all over the world. And the tuning situation is definitely a complication, which is why I find it necessary to have two sets of bars. But here's my experience. The USA is still predominately 440. And while there has been talk for thirty years of this eventually moving to 442, it has yet to happen with the exception of symphonic situations. And even there, it is sometimes 440. Europe is 90% 442. I say that because even as I tour around Europe, about one out of ten pianos I come across is tuned to 440, especially in southern Europe. South America seems to be primarily 442. Asia is a mix. Japan is 442, but some other places I have toured in Asia I found 440 pianos. Chick said that even the London Philharmonic still tunes to 440! This, even though pretty much all classical performances are at 442, or in the case of the Berlin Phil it is 443.
But, to return to my main point, gigging in clubs, hotels, normal concert halls, around the USA, you will never run into a 442 piano unless they have borrowed it from the symphony. I can truthfully say that I haven't used my 442 bars in the USA or Canada more than a handful of times over the past three decades.
And let me heartily agree with what was posted earlier. You will hear a difference if you are at 442 and the piano is at 440. There is a nice sonorous blend that happens only when the instruments are both tuned to the same pitch. Without it, the audience probably won't notice the difference, and you may not either on a fast tempo piece. But play a ballad with some exposed unison notes that sustain and it will be more harsh if the tuning isn't the same.
Given the stage of your career at the present time Joe, definitely order the 440 bars. That would be my advice without question.
Someday, the whole world may be using 442, but probably not in my lifetime. Remember when we were going to go to the decimal system a couple of decades ago, and use meters and kilos, etc.? Hmmmm. Never happened, did it? And even if we do all get to 442, the symphony players by that time will be at 444 or 445 (getting to the stage where dogs will have more appreciation for their high notes than humans). All the best, whatever you decide. Gary
Musser doesn't have any A=440's in stock. It would take me 6 weeks or more they said. I'm financing them and the bank wants the serial number by the end of this month because that's my collateral (I have no assets). So I'm in a bind :(. How do I handle this situation?
one thing though, i waited 6 months for my 440 bars on my 48.
but i think it's going to be worth it.
you can always take the loan out in 6 weeks. talk to steve weiss, tell him i recommended you talk to him. maybe he'd take a downpayment and order the 55 with the 440 bars. so you send him a couple hundred bucks and then wait and then take the loan out.
Are you saying that Musser sells stock 442 bars with stock resonators tuned to 440?
I could understand if that was the case (not that I would excuse it) since many musicians would never notice the difference. During this thread, the thought had occurred to me about resonator tuning, so I'm glad you chimed in on this.
On an unrelated note, Nico's advice would solve Joe's financing problem. It puts the instrument in his hands so he can give the bank the serial number, but at the same time takes the instrument away when Joe sends the bars back to Musser for retuning. But overall, it's a better solution than my suggestion about using credit cards.
Thanks, Barry. I think we've helped Joe a lot here with all of these various points of view.
It seems that the only fly in the ointment is the 6-week to 6-month wait to be able to get 440 bars. I suppose it's fair to say that Musser and Yamaha are assembly-line instruments, so one would think that Musser would have a stock supply of 440 bars available. But it's easier for me to say that since I'm not the one who has to carry those bars in back stock.
Here I am again. I go back and forth constantly between my 440 bars and my 442 bars using my current stock Musser resonators, presumably set for 440 because apparently when they switched to 442 tuning ten or fifteen years ago, they didn't bother to adjust the resonator settings. But, I have to tell everybody, I can't tell a lick of difference in the tone quality between the 440 and the 442 bars when I go back and forth. I think my ears are pretty developed. I have perfect pitch have produced a lot of records over the years, listening carefully to the vibraphone sound (and some of my records are with the 440 bars and some with the 442). The difference in the resonator tuning just doesn't seem to be that crucial to my ears, at least. I'm sure a purist would prefer the resonators tuned exactly, but I have had two decades or more of experience going back and forth between the two sets of bars and I would surely notice if there was a discernible difference. As for nico's advice to return the 442 bars, I can't say what Musser would do in such a case, but I wouldn't automatically count on that being an easy process. As to why it takes 6 weeks to six months to get a set of 440 bars, I can't say for sure. It's a small operation at the Musser factory, and I suppose they make different parts of the instruments in quantities, rather than making say all the vibraphone parts every day. They probably make bars for a period of a week or two, enough to last for several months, then wait before setting up to make more bars again. I don't know, that's just an assumption. It's probably more efficient manufacturing wise. It's been quite a few years since I visited the factory, but I always enjoyed meeting the workers there. Very nice people, very dedicated to their products, and a very pleasant atmosphere. Next time I'm in Chicago I should get out there for a quick visit.
If you do not have access to a co-signer for the loan, then it's possibly a matter of seeing many low-ceiling credit cards you can obtain and collectively use to charge the downpayment/deposit. However, juggling credit cards are a dangerous game to play, so be careful and don't do it unless you feel you have the discipline to manage that.
Once a pianist good friend of mine, John Sauer, went to play a duo gig at a club in the Berkshires. The only Vibe I had available for that event was tuned 442. On the downbeat of the 1st tune (Crystal Silence!) we both jumped in shock at the dissonance that came out. Man that was a difficult nite - 3 sets! It was so hard to just let go and play. I had to tell myself "don't worry it is a new kind of gamelan". So yeah is was the hardest gig ever to sustain tune by tune...but no one in the audience seemed to notice! Everyone said "great!!",...but I could not feel it. - well John and I have played hundreds of gigs together so the basic interplay was there but for both of us it was a very very tough gig.
John, I got a chuckle out of the Cincinnati Symphony debating over 441 or 442. Orchestral tuning is such a mish-mash anyway. The higher instruments tend to play sharp, and being as the only fixed pitch instrument in the orchestra is the piano (other than occasional color from the mallets) and the piano doesn't even appear on that many pieces, it's a wonder an orchestra even claims to be at a specific pitch. Piano tuners often stretch, so to speak, the upper octaves of pianos so that they blend better with the high instruments in an orchestra. Larry Bunker specifically had his xylophone tuned to 442/443 so that it would match the strings when he did film dates in Hollywood. I have tried to determine at what point a difference in pitch is noticeable to players or listeners. First I will tell you that I saved up money for college by working as a piano tuner, probably tuning a couple hundred pianos before I gave up that line of work. To me, at least, one cent difference does not make a noticeable difference to the ear. Two begins to be an issue, especially noticeable in slow moving and unison sustained passages. The musicians notice descrepancy first. The listeners don't really perceive the difference except that there is a missing sonority and blend that is there when the tunings are exact. But, I would never expect an audience member to come up to me after a set and say they thought it was out of tune. Once Chick and I encountered a 443 piano in France, and I only had 440 bars then. That was a painful night for us, we tried to avoid obvious unison passages. But, still I doubt anyone in the audience actually noticed the problem.
Once at a science fair when I was in high school, I had the chance to experiment to see just how accurate my perfect pitch happens to be. Without looking at the dial, I turned the knob of an audiometer until I felt I was hearing exactly A=440. I tried the experiment every hour or two during that day. I was never more than one cent off, either higher or lower, and occasionally right on. But, it wasn't literally perfect. Sometimes I settled on 441 or 439. All in all it's something of a psychological issue, too. I try not to obsess about it too much.
get that course that's in all the books. you're young enough where you can probably get.
that course helped me alot. i don't have ears like gary, but that course got me into this new space with all this. it helped me and one thing it really did. it made me understand that my ears depend on me being relaxed.
one of my favorite musicians, chris potter, does not have perfect pitch. i know some heavy cats that will tell you they don't have it.
the book i'm reading 'this is your brain on music' says that we actually map each pitch to a specific area of our brain. so in a way, PP is built in to everybody. so i don't know what's up there. i know that people who speak tonal languages like oriental ones have a MUCH higher rate of PP.
in the end someone is going to play a chord and you're going to respond, you'll say something or your won't.
i also know the chick that the perfect pitch guy talks about in the magazines. she's my buddies wife and he's the perc teacher at u of del. she'll play anything back to you, but she ain't gonna improvise on all blues for nothin'.
it's all pretty interesting to me. i'm sure chick has the 'whole' package, just like gary, bobby mcferrin and of course herbie.
Joe, Take my word for it, having perfect pitch is almost meaningless to professional musicians. I discovered at age six that the notes on the piano in our living room each had a unique sound. My father used to delight in just grabbing a couple of handfuls of notes and then I would start at the bottom and read off all the notes he had struck. I read recently that some 5% of American musicians have inborn pitch recognition, while about 40% of Chinese musicians do! Tony was correct about that being related to the melodic nature of the Chinese language. But, the important thing is, it doesn't really make much difference between two professional players, one with perfect pitch and the other with relative pitch. Most of the players I work with do not have perfect pitch (Chick Corea, Pat Metheny, etc). And, I can tell you I have met my share of lame musicians who do have perfect pitch.
All it means is that I got a head start with pitch recognition because I seemed to have it from the beginning, and others developed the equivalent as they developed their musicianship. There is one downside to perfect pitch. It is mentally harder to transpose and I found solfege to be damn near impossible. I could take anything down in dictation, better than anyone else in the ear training class at college, but I was terrible at solfege with moveable Do. To me Do had to be "C" and otherwise I had to transpose on the fly.
To me having perfect pitch remains pretty much the parlor trick that I played with my father as a kid. As a professional, the ear abilities of the players I work with are every bit as good as mine. (Another observation, it's easier to identify pitches on instruments like the piano or vibes, than wind instruments or voice. And, switching back and forth between 440 and 442 sometimes throws me off).
Comments
yes for the motor
tonymiceli Mon, 08/03/2009 - 18:55
the motor is like 600 bucks i think. too bad because it's probably 50 bucks in parts. (not like i would really know, but i assume).
talk to nico also.
------------------------
Tony Miceli
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com
www.facebook.com/people/Tony-Miceli/604414578
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Hmm
Jdoubleday Mon, 08/03/2009 - 18:58
In reply to yes for the motor by tonymiceli
Well I just got a loan for some vibes. I want the M48 in gold with a motor. Musser advertises them as the silver having the motor and the Gold doesnt. :/
That makes no sense to me
-Joe Doubleday
http://myspace.com/joedoubleday
http://www.youtube.com/user/Issossk
m48
tonymiceli Mon, 08/03/2009 - 21:30
In reply to Hmm by Jdoubleday
that's the portable one? comes apart in many pieces.
i would NOT get that one and get an m-55 instead. ask john piper and nico about that instrument.
the m-55 is much sturdier and will take the wear and tear of gigs MUCH better than the m-48.
i have both, and have talked to both piper and nico about the 48.
forget the gold bars, you might think they'll get you chicks but they just don't. silver m-55 is the chick magnet.
get the m-55, get the cases from beiner bags, and get a rock and roller, and you're to walk that instrument 5 miles if you have to.
------------------------
Tony Miceli
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com
www.facebook.com/people/Tony-Miceli/604414578
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also
John Keene Tue, 08/04/2009 - 09:43
In reply to m48 by tonymiceli
YOu can get the M55 in gold - it's the M55G model, and I recommend spending the extra $15 to download Piper's M-brace schmatic and building a set of leg braces to protect the frame. You can get it direct from Piper.
Tony is only slightly right about the silver getting the chicks. If you want to get chick who are YOUR age, go with gold.
M-braces
tpvibes Tue, 08/04/2009 - 10:30
In reply to also by John Keene
Hi John,
I think the M55s (and M55Gs) have M-braces built in now. I don't know if it's exactly Piper's design, but the M55G I got last summer has what I would call M-braces -- see http://www.musser-mallets.com/vibraphones/product.php?sku=M55 for a picture where you can see the braces pretty clearly. Compare that to a 1960's M55 currently for sale at the Mallet Shop -- http://www.malletshop.com/product_detail.cfm?prod=443.
The new M55 frames are also height-adjustable. The only thing you need to add is a vanderPlas damper pad :-).
Tom P.
not the actual M-brace, but ...
John Keene Tue, 08/04/2009 - 10:48
In reply to M-braces by tpvibes
The picture shown in the link does not display the actual Piper M-brace, but it IS a vast improvement on the original design. Also, I didn't know that it is height-adjustable now, so that is also a vast improvement as well.
To address Joe's other question about the motor, I'm pretty sure that all Mussers offer the motor as an option now, whereas back when I bought mine it was included. Tastes have changed in the last 30 years, so it makes sense to make the motor optional now. I'm nearly positive that James Shipp plays a M48 with a motor, so it's definitely something that can be added to the instrument.
do i have this right? is the m-48
tonymiceli Tue, 08/04/2009 - 12:01
In reply to not the actual M-brace, but ... by John Keene
this is the traveler right???? that's the one i have nico making me a new keybed for.
------------------------
Tony Miceli
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com
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Yes.
John Keene Tue, 08/04/2009 - 12:19
In reply to do i have this right? is the m-48 by tonymiceli
Yes. That new keybed should be really nice with Nico constructing it.
M-braces
Tani Pales Thu, 08/06/2009 - 08:54
In reply to M-braces by tpvibes
at least 6 years the M55 and M46 have M-braces built in now and they are also height-adjustable.
And Yesss, it's need to change the damper pad with a VdP gel-filled
Tani P.
M48
Jdoubleday Tue, 08/04/2009 - 12:29
In reply to m48 by tonymiceli
so whats so bad about the m48? i figure that portability is good, plus the resonators look a whole lot better. Gary Burton uses it so it can't be too bad. The cases for the m55 are expensive as hell. I'm a bit confused.
I prefer girls my age. haha-Joe Doubleday
http://myspace.com/joedoubleday
http://www.youtube.com/user/Issossk
cool
vibraman Thu, 08/06/2009 - 02:36
In reply to m48 by tonymiceli
cool i always was a bit scared and i want to have gold bars because i thought of the chicks....then i got special offer for a m55 with silver bars and took it.i love the look of the vibes now.and my girlfriend always says silver looks better then gold.gold looks more showy but the girls like it subtile :).
i would recommend to all people using any musser instrument no matter m58 or 48 to replace the damper with nicos silicon damper. this really solved all the problems i got with my m55 and for me its the nearly the perfect instrument now. the other thing i don´t like is the shape of the upper resonator tubes. they have this half moon (at least mine, i dont know if the newer m55 models have the same)cause back in the days musser thought this will look more cool. its just extra weight to carry and stupid in my opinion.i always thought to replace them with nicos help and make the design of the m48 resonators but this is just a minor problem. of course i would like to have also a vanderplas (nico, i love you) cause they sound great and they have this extra octave but this would be only a luxurus issue.no real need. in germany there is a company that built soft cases for the m55 and m48 which are also perfect.they are so light but protect well.here is the link:
http://www.percussion-bags.de/
ok time to chime in
mikepinto Tue, 08/04/2009 - 13:29
I have an m48 and love it. I gig a lot with it and it holds together fine for me. It does have dampening issues. But they aren't terrible and proper placement can help alot.
The biggest reason to get it is the portability. I put most of the pieces into a large duffle bag along with half the resonators. The sides and other half of resonators I just carry loose. This makes the instrument fit into the trunk of a jetta and then you can still carry 4 passengers. or a bass and 2 passengers.
Now if I was not worried about space I would get a more solid frame (m-55). Plus, since the m-48s resonators break in half the fans get all sorts of messed up and can be annoying to maintain so they dont make noise.
so again if transportation is not an issue go for the m-55 but if you need to transport it in smaller vehicles then I like the m-48 alot...
I got mine from lonestar percussion about 10 years ago and it came with a motor.
- www.mikepinto.net
set up time
Jdoubleday Tue, 08/04/2009 - 13:57
In reply to ok time to chime in by mikepinto
which one is faster to set up. I really like the look of the M48 and the portability. I dont like the way the M55 looks. I figure they sound the same.
My deal is, I drive a truck but I have been using the Century vibe so I always have to bum help from people to pick it up and take it out of my truck. I want to be able to have mine in cases and be able to move it by myself. My gigs are picking up. Im booked twice a week for 2 months (Freaking awesome, never had so many gigs in my life). So i need to get my instrument soon
What sucks about this is that I need to make a decision within a few hours.
I thought I had made my mind up.
-Joe Doubleday
http://myspace.com/joedoubleday
http://www.youtube.com/user/Issossk
recommend
John Keene Tue, 08/04/2009 - 14:23
In reply to set up time by Jdoubleday
In that case, Joe, think about this as a possible expense-saving temporary solution.
If you drive a truck and can strap your Century so it doesn't move, you might want to consider a ramp of some kind to roll it in and out of your truck. If you do a google search on truck ramps (including wheelchair ramps), you might find something to your liking. Good ramps are expensive, but a lot less expensive than a new vibe.
The next investment is a set of new casters that are larger than the stock Musser casters. Bill Youhass at Fall Creek Marimbas sells the vanderPlas casters.
I wouldn't recommend this if you're going on the road, but for local gigs where you can move in and out quickly this might work for you. The time you spend breaking down and packing up is also the time you could be making contact with all the girls who dig gold vibraphones.
1 problem
Jdoubleday Tue, 08/04/2009 - 14:43
In reply to recommend by John Keene
The century vibe isnt mine. It belongs to my school and I have to borrow it. Ladies dont like a guy who drives his parents car and they dont like a vibe player who plays his schools vibes. Also, strapping vibes down is not something I like. I cant find a good way to strap it down without messing up the frame in some way.
I really need my own vibes.
set up time isnt THAT much of an issue. I dont mind taking a few minutes to put stuff together.-Joe Doubleday
http://myspace.com/joedoubleday
http://www.youtube.com/user/Issossk
In that case..
John Keene Tue, 08/04/2009 - 14:49
In reply to 1 problem by Jdoubleday
In that case, I see your point. I would tend to agree with Mike Pinto that the M48 is probably the way to go for your needs. I have a feeling that Mike takes exceptionally good care of his instrument when moving it, so I think his advice is solid.
i have the setup time down
mikepinto Tue, 08/04/2009 - 17:20
In reply to In that case.. by John Keene
i have the setup time down to 11 minutes if I'm in a hurry with the m-48. I think I did 8 minutes once.
I wonder if you can get the frame for the m-55 that tony likes so much and the resonators from the 48 since you don't want the large resonators? All the newer ones fit with each other just fine.
good luck!
(also check with local high schools, you never know when they are getting new instruments and wanting to get rid of old ones. You can offer them next to nothing and they might bite. I don't even want to say how much I got a perfect century for all because it had a few scratches in it...!)
- www.mikepinto.net
take down
Jdoubleday Tue, 08/04/2009 - 17:56
In reply to i have the setup time down by mikepinto
how about the take down time?
-Joe Doubleday
http://myspace.com/joedoubleday
http://www.youtube.com/user/Issossk
m-55
tonymiceli Tue, 08/04/2009 - 15:49
In reply to set up time by Jdoubleday
i'm telling you. that's my vote. many opinions here, so it's ultimately up to you.
m-55
cases
rock and roller
you will thank me IMHO
------------------------
Tony Miceli
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com
www.facebook.com/people/Tony-Miceli/604414578
http://twitter.com/tonymiceli
www.myspace.com/tonymicelivibes
resonators
Jdoubleday Tue, 08/04/2009 - 16:07
In reply to m-55 by tonymiceli
The resonators are so big!
-Joe Doubleday
http://myspace.com/joedoubleday
http://www.youtube.com/user/Issossk
you'll survive!
tonymiceli Tue, 08/04/2009 - 22:42
In reply to resonators by Jdoubleday
they're not that big.
what's important is you take all this information and make a good decision. whatever you do will be great because you'll have a new great set of vibes!
------------------------
Tony Miceli
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com
www.facebook.com/people/Tony-Miceli/604414578
http://twitter.com/tonymiceli
www.myspace.com/tonymicelivibes
tony
Jdoubleday Wed, 08/05/2009 - 00:40
In reply to you'll survive! by tonymiceli
I still dont get whats so bad about the M48. I take good care of my equipment, whatever it may be.
Is there a lot of frame sound, or is it just a dampening issue? Just extra sounds in general?
-Joe Doubleday
http://myspace.com/joedoubleday
http://www.youtube.com/user/Issossk
was hoping
tonymiceli Tue, 08/04/2009 - 14:20
In reply to ok time to chime in by mikepinto
you'd chime in.
but mike now is an appropriate time to talk about your century vibes and depress all of us. (if you want)
------------------------
Tony Miceli
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com
www.facebook.com/people/Tony-Miceli/604414578
http://twitter.com/tonymiceli
www.myspace.com/tonymicelivibes
Talk about time to chime in
Gary Burton Wed, 08/05/2009 - 09:04
Hey Joe,. et al,
I would say it's a tough call between the 55 and the 48, each has pros and cons. I will start by saying that I designed both the 55 and the 48. I started my road travel in 1963 with George Shearing's band. The only professional model vibraphones then were either the Musser Century or the Deagan Aurora. Both were large and cumbersome. I did 312 days on the road with Shearing in 1963, carrying around five cases weighing 265 pounds to get my Century to the gigs. It took me about twenty minutes to set up the thing. In 1964 I started touring with Stan Getz and realized that I had many years ahead of me lugging these cases around. I noted that Musser made a smaller keyboard student model called, I think, the One-Niter. I went to Musser and convinced them to make the same design but with a full size keyboard. They were skeptical because the new instrument didn't look as solid and nice as the Century. But, it caught on immediately and quickly became the most popular model. It was and is available in silver and gold, and eventually they began to offer it with or without a motor (for those of us who don't have a use for the motor). The cases for the 55, two large and one small one for the bars, are a bit unwieldy but would still fit into the trunk of a larger car of the 60's. So, if I was ever stranded upon arrival in a new city, I could always count on a taxi getting me where I needed to go.
That began to change in the 70's and 80's. Cars kept getting smaller. I worried over this for sometime and watched Milt Jackson, traveling with a full size instrument, always being at the mercy of helpers to deal with his cases. At one time he traveled with the entire instrument in one huge case requiring a team of lifters to carry it and shipping it air freight. Besides the car problem with the 55 cases, there is also the airplane issue. Over time, the airlines became more strict about checking items that are oversize or over a certain weight (70 pounds is the usual top limit). So, while riding in the car on a long road trip, I starting thinking up a design that would be more portable. My tour manager then was very handy at carpentry (he now teaches cabinet-making at a school in Boston). I drew up the design and sent him to Chicago to collect the necessary parts and pieces from Musser to make a prototype. They also were helpful in creating the resonators that lock together, and a few other custom pieces.
Dennis built the first model of what would become the 48 and I started using it for touring. I found a local case maker in Boston to make 2 cases that are about the size of large luggage, so they would pass muster at airline checkin. We discovered a few weaknesses with the first go around and model number two was an improvement, the frame steadier, etc. Musser asked me if they should consider manufacturing a model based on my design and at first I said no. If only a handful of traveling professionals would have a use for a portable version, then they wouldn't sell enough to justify taking it on. But, over the first year or two, I had many people interested in the design, and eventually Musser decided to make it available, and now the 48 has become their most popular model.
I also consulted with Yamaha during a visit to Japan in the mid-80's. They had started making vibraphones, having bought the Deagan company around that time, and they were interested in a more portable model, too. I showed them how I had designed the instrument and made suggestions that they might try. As a result, the design of their model is quite similar to the Musser 48. I think the main difference between the Yamaha and Musser instruments is in the bars. Yamaha wanted to follow on with the Deagan approach to the bars (a thinner, drier sound that sustains a bit longer, versus a fatter mellower tone with the Musser). I tried to talk them out of that but they were committed already when it came to the bar manufacturing.
Now, my opinion as to the pros and cons between the 55 and 48. The 55 is definitely more sturdy and the keyboard is fixed in place so it is less liable to be out of adjustment for dampening, etc. However, there's no getting around the fact that it is a challenge for traveling. So, if you are not taking the instrument out much, the 55 seems the right choice. The 48, due to the many interconnecting parts, is more prone to needing adjustment. For instance, currently I use a little wedge of folded paper in the third rail to slightly raise it to the best positioning for the damper bar. I also do something on each new 48 frame I get to make it easier to set up. Instead of using the holes to bolt the end pieces to the legs, I take a hack saw and create slots where the holes are, so I don't have to unscrew the nuts on the end pieces all the way. Just loosen them and slide the end piece off or on. Saves a couple of minutes. I can set up my 48 in about 5-6 minutes and tear in down in maybe 4. I can also do it in the dark, when necessary (lol).
Yes, the 48 is not perfect, but I have been using one for twenty-some years now with great satisfaction. And, you can't beat the portability. I can check in on any airplane, the cases fit in many standard auto trunks (I currently have a Toyota Solara convertible, and the entire instrument goes in there just perfectly).
Finally, I'll have to leave it to others to comment on the chick magnet potential of the vibraphone since I play on another team.
wedge of paper
tonymiceli Wed, 08/05/2009 - 11:16
In reply to Talk about time to chime in by Gary Burton
i wish i would have thought of that!!
i think for running around in a car and doing gigs the 55 is fast to set up. my rig is easy to move around. i can set that up in about 5 minutes. i do doubles and triples and run all over to eek out a living!!
i guess if you're on a plane that's a different story.
damn piece of paper. i'm dumb!
------------------------
Tony Miceli
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com
www.facebook.com/people/Tony-Miceli/604414578
http://twitter.com/tonymiceli
www.myspace.com/tonymicelivibes
cases
tonymiceli Wed, 08/05/2009 - 11:19
In reply to wedge of paper by tonymiceli
i spent the last 2 years working with biener bags to create soft cases for the m-55 and other models. it's done and they're great. so keep that option in mind. the hard cases are the real deal, you can bang them all over. the soft ones can fit into small cars though.
and again i mention the rock and roller.
------------------------
Tony Miceli
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com
www.facebook.com/people/Tony-Miceli/604414578
http://twitter.com/tonymiceli
www.myspace.com/tonymicelivibes
man, thanks for chiming in
mikepinto Wed, 08/05/2009 - 13:15
In reply to Talk about time to chime in by Gary Burton
man, thanks for chiming in gary! I'm curious about what you(or anyone) think of the dampener felt for the newer models vs ones 10 or more years ago? I have one that is so soft and dampens really nice but on new models the dampener feels really hard and seems to give a more hard dampen as apposed to the gradual lighter dampening from a fluffy pad.....am I imagining this or does anyone else notice that?
- www.mikepinto.net
A440?
Jdoubleday Wed, 08/05/2009 - 17:15
In reply to Talk about time to chime in by Gary Burton
It always makes me feel cool to get a reply from the man who inspired me to listen to more jazz.
I have decided to take one more day to make sure that I make the right decision. I'm definitely leaning toward the 48. I do take it out often. I have 4 gigs this week and I have to use the Century vibe at these and I can hardly get them through the door. I feel like I'm rolling them half a mile on a brick sidewalk.
I will take Tony's suggestion with the Rock and Roller.
So I have another question that I know will bring up some more controversy, but it's something I need to know...
Should I get the Bars in A442 or A440? I've always played A442 with no problem (I don't have perfect pitch so I can't tell). I dont plan on using them for any orchestral things. My school has 4 Century Vibes all tuned to A442. So If I get A440 I don't think I could use it in percussion ensemble. I've used to the A442 for a year now doing gigs (I'm fairly new to the professional side of the vibraphone) and no one has ever said a word to me about it. But I think i want to really be in tune with the groups I play in. ha.
Also keep in mind, I plan on being at this school for only this year and hopefully I make it into a different school to pursue a jazz vibraphone degree (don't care so much about the title of having a degree, I just want the skills). So the percussion ensemble aspect is just a minor issue.
I've read some other threads on TheVibe.net but I figured I could get some feedback here
Mr. Burton, I have many friends that play on the other team (my school has a huge dance and vocal program, Kristin Chenowith went to my school) but they always seem to know the best way to impress a lady.
-Joe Doubleday
http://myspace.com/joedoubleday
http://www.youtube.com/user/Issossk
moving towards a 442 world
John Keene Wed, 08/05/2009 - 17:48
In reply to A440? by Jdoubleday
I've been a holdout for 440, but I'm becoming more and more convinced we're moving into a 442 world. I remember the discussion on the vibenet several years back, but things may have changed since then.
I think the only instruments that I can think of where the pitch can't be moved is a piano (unless you're willing to retune it at your expense), and Hammond organs and accordions (many of which are now 442). I would think that you can tell a band to strobe-tune to 442, and most organists you encounter are going towards digital instruments that can be tuned to 442 (my Hammond does). So that leaves piano, but I tend to think that most vibes players in the current age are going to be hired instead of a pianist rather than in addition to one.
My vote would be to go 442, but I'll be really curious to know what other people think and if I'm in the minority.
As a sidenote, I asked one the section leaders of the Cincinnati Symphony to confirm if the orchestra tuned to 442 since I have a 442 accordion for symphony pops gigs. He said the CSO tuned to 441, and I asked what difference it made. His reply was, "Man, we actually have had MEETINGS over 441 vs 442."
Interesting
Jdoubleday Wed, 08/05/2009 - 18:00
In reply to moving towards a 442 world by John Keene
I usually get hired instead of a pianist, but I sometimes play in a duo setting with a pianist.
Also sometimes I get hired to play in a quartet with a pianist, but he usually plays a rhodes (not sure if those can be changed to A442).
Like I said, I never really realized a problem with it.
-Joe Doubleday
http://myspace.com/joedoubleday
http://www.youtube.com/user/Issossk
440-!!!!
Gary Burton Thu, 08/06/2009 - 10:30
In reply to Interesting by Jdoubleday
I dare say I have had more experience dealing with tunings than any other vibist, given that I play numerous concerts every year all over the world. And the tuning situation is definitely a complication, which is why I find it necessary to have two sets of bars. But here's my experience. The USA is still predominately 440. And while there has been talk for thirty years of this eventually moving to 442, it has yet to happen with the exception of symphonic situations. And even there, it is sometimes 440. Europe is 90% 442. I say that because even as I tour around Europe, about one out of ten pianos I come across is tuned to 440, especially in southern Europe. South America seems to be primarily 442. Asia is a mix. Japan is 442, but some other places I have toured in Asia I found 440 pianos. Chick said that even the London Philharmonic still tunes to 440! This, even though pretty much all classical performances are at 442, or in the case of the Berlin Phil it is 443.
But, to return to my main point, gigging in clubs, hotels, normal concert halls, around the USA, you will never run into a 442 piano unless they have borrowed it from the symphony. I can truthfully say that I haven't used my 442 bars in the USA or Canada more than a handful of times over the past three decades.
And let me heartily agree with what was posted earlier. You will hear a difference if you are at 442 and the piano is at 440. There is a nice sonorous blend that happens only when the instruments are both tuned to the same pitch. Without it, the audience probably won't notice the difference, and you may not either on a fast tempo piece. But play a ballad with some exposed unison notes that sustain and it will be more harsh if the tuning isn't the same.
Given the stage of your career at the present time Joe, definitely order the 440 bars. That would be my advice without question.
Someday, the whole world may be using 442, but probably not in my lifetime. Remember when we were going to go to the decimal system a couple of decades ago, and use meters and kilos, etc.? Hmmmm. Never happened, did it? And even if we do all get to 442, the symphony players by that time will be at 444 or 445 (getting to the stage where dogs will have more appreciation for their high notes than humans). All the best, whatever you decide. Gary
In a Bind
Jdoubleday Thu, 08/06/2009 - 11:22
In reply to 440-!!!! by Gary Burton
Musser doesn't have any A=440's in stock. It would take me 6 weeks or more they said. I'm financing them and the bank wants the serial number by the end of this month because that's my collateral (I have no assets). So I'm in a bind :(. How do I handle this situation?
-Joe Doubleday
http://myspace.com/joedoubleday
http://www.youtube.com/user/Issossk
go talk to your bank
tonymiceli Thu, 08/06/2009 - 11:29
In reply to In a Bind by Jdoubleday
one thing though, i waited 6 months for my 440 bars on my 48.
but i think it's going to be worth it.
you can always take the loan out in 6 weeks. talk to steve weiss, tell him i recommended you talk to him. maybe he'd take a downpayment and order the 55 with the 440 bars. so you send him a couple hundred bucks and then wait and then take the loan out.
just an idea.
------------------------
Tony Miceli
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com
www.facebook.com/people/Tony-Miceli/604414578
http://twitter.com/tonymiceli
www.myspace.com/tonymicelivibes
Order the A442 and return
nico Fri, 08/07/2009 - 06:29
In reply to go talk to your bank by tonymiceli
Order the A442 and return the bars back to Musser telling them to lower to A440 'cause they don't match the resonators.
Pretty sure Musser has good after sales service.
Nico
vanderPlas Baileo Percussion Instruments
www.vanderplasbaileo.com
The new Frits Landesbergen CD "De Doelen 2009", recorded
live with the LW35 is now available thru www.baileo.nl
clarify, please
John Keene Fri, 08/07/2009 - 07:10
In reply to Order the A442 and return by nico
Nico,
Are you saying that Musser sells stock 442 bars with stock resonators tuned to 440?
I could understand if that was the case (not that I would excuse it) since many musicians would never notice the difference. During this thread, the thought had occurred to me about resonator tuning, so I'm glad you chimed in on this.
On an unrelated note, Nico's advice would solve Joe's financing problem. It puts the instrument in his hands so he can give the bank the serial number, but at the same time takes the instrument away when Joe sends the bars back to Musser for retuning. But overall, it's a better solution than my suggestion about using credit cards.
Musser resonators are tuned to 440
BarryK Fri, 08/07/2009 - 09:17
In reply to clarify, please by John Keene
Here is the thread:
http://www.vibesworkshop.com/story/bars-resonators-their-behaviour-and-…
Barry
Thanks, Barry
John Keene Fri, 08/07/2009 - 09:33
In reply to Musser resonators are tuned to 440 by BarryK
Thanks, Barry. I think we've helped Joe a lot here with all of these various points of view.
It seems that the only fly in the ointment is the 6-week to 6-month wait to be able to get 440 bars. I suppose it's fair to say that Musser and Yamaha are assembly-line instruments, so one would think that Musser would have a stock supply of 440 bars available. But it's easier for me to say that since I'm not the one who has to carry those bars in back stock.
440 resonators and order times
Gary Burton Fri, 08/07/2009 - 09:53
In reply to Musser resonators are tuned to 440 by BarryK
Here I am again. I go back and forth constantly between my 440 bars and my 442 bars using my current stock Musser resonators, presumably set for 440 because apparently when they switched to 442 tuning ten or fifteen years ago, they didn't bother to adjust the resonator settings. But, I have to tell everybody, I can't tell a lick of difference in the tone quality between the 440 and the 442 bars when I go back and forth. I think my ears are pretty developed. I have perfect pitch have produced a lot of records over the years, listening carefully to the vibraphone sound (and some of my records are with the 440 bars and some with the 442). The difference in the resonator tuning just doesn't seem to be that crucial to my ears, at least. I'm sure a purist would prefer the resonators tuned exactly, but I have had two decades or more of experience going back and forth between the two sets of bars and I would surely notice if there was a discernible difference. As for nico's advice to return the 442 bars, I can't say what Musser would do in such a case, but I wouldn't automatically count on that being an easy process. As to why it takes 6 weeks to six months to get a set of 440 bars, I can't say for sure. It's a small operation at the Musser factory, and I suppose they make different parts of the instruments in quantities, rather than making say all the vibraphone parts every day. They probably make bars for a period of a week or two, enough to last for several months, then wait before setting up to make more bars again. I don't know, that's just an assumption. It's probably more efficient manufacturing wise. It's been quite a few years since I visited the factory, but I always enjoyed meeting the workers there. Very nice people, very dedicated to their products, and a very pleasant atmosphere. Next time I'm in Chicago I should get out there for a quick visit.
A trip to the factory
DrBobM55 Fri, 08/07/2009 - 13:07
In reply to 440 resonators and order times by Gary Burton
I grew up six blocks from the Musser factory...
http://www.vibesworkshop.com/story/who-drbobm55/tonymiceli/042609#comme…
Bob Wesner
figured it out
Jdoubleday Thu, 08/06/2009 - 11:44
In reply to In a Bind by Jdoubleday
The bank said the wait was fine. I just hope it isnt 6 months.
-Joe Doubleday
http://myspace.com/joedoubleday
http://www.youtube.com/user/Issossk
Credit Cards
John Keene Thu, 08/06/2009 - 12:08
In reply to In a Bind by Jdoubleday
If you do not have access to a co-signer for the loan, then it's possibly a matter of seeing many low-ceiling credit cards you can obtain and collectively use to charge the downpayment/deposit. However, juggling credit cards are a dangerous game to play, so be careful and don't do it unless you feel you have the discipline to manage that.
440/2
edmann Thu, 02/18/2010 - 12:15
In reply to 440-!!!! by Gary Burton
Once a pianist good friend of mine, John Sauer, went to play a duo gig at a club in the Berkshires. The only Vibe I had available for that event was tuned 442. On the downbeat of the 1st tune (Crystal Silence!) we both jumped in shock at the dissonance that came out. Man that was a difficult nite - 3 sets! It was so hard to just let go and play. I had to tell myself "don't worry it is a new kind of gamelan". So yeah is was the hardest gig ever to sustain tune by tune...but no one in the audience seemed to notice! Everyone said "great!!",...but I could not feel it. - well John and I have played hundreds of gigs together so the basic interplay was there but for both of us it was a very very tough gig.
more interesting 440 vs 442 thoughts
Gary Burton Fri, 08/07/2009 - 10:08
In reply to moving towards a 442 world by John Keene
John, I got a chuckle out of the Cincinnati Symphony debating over 441 or 442. Orchestral tuning is such a mish-mash anyway. The higher instruments tend to play sharp, and being as the only fixed pitch instrument in the orchestra is the piano (other than occasional color from the mallets) and the piano doesn't even appear on that many pieces, it's a wonder an orchestra even claims to be at a specific pitch. Piano tuners often stretch, so to speak, the upper octaves of pianos so that they blend better with the high instruments in an orchestra. Larry Bunker specifically had his xylophone tuned to 442/443 so that it would match the strings when he did film dates in Hollywood. I have tried to determine at what point a difference in pitch is noticeable to players or listeners. First I will tell you that I saved up money for college by working as a piano tuner, probably tuning a couple hundred pianos before I gave up that line of work. To me, at least, one cent difference does not make a noticeable difference to the ear. Two begins to be an issue, especially noticeable in slow moving and unison sustained passages. The musicians notice descrepancy first. The listeners don't really perceive the difference except that there is a missing sonority and blend that is there when the tunings are exact. But, I would never expect an audience member to come up to me after a set and say they thought it was out of tune. Once Chick and I encountered a 443 piano in France, and I only had 440 bars then. That was a painful night for us, we tried to avoid obvious unison passages. But, still I doubt anyone in the audience actually noticed the problem.
Once at a science fair when I was in high school, I had the chance to experiment to see just how accurate my perfect pitch happens to be. Without looking at the dial, I turned the knob of an audiometer until I felt I was hearing exactly A=440. I tried the experiment every hour or two during that day. I was never more than one cent off, either higher or lower, and occasionally right on. But, it wasn't literally perfect. Sometimes I settled on 441 or 439. All in all it's something of a psychological issue, too. I try not to obsess about it too much.
Wait a second Mr. Burton!
Jdoubleday Fri, 08/07/2009 - 12:15
In reply to more interesting 440 vs 442 thoughts by Gary Burton
So you have perfect pitch? Does Chick Corea? I've always been fascinated/jealous of those with perfect pitch.
I'd be curious to know how many big time musicians have it and how many don't have it.
-Joe Doubleday
http://myspace.com/joedoubleday
http://www.youtube.com/user/Issossk
perfect pitch course
tonymiceli Fri, 08/07/2009 - 12:24
In reply to Wait a second Mr. Burton! by Jdoubleday
get that course that's in all the books. you're young enough where you can probably get.
that course helped me alot. i don't have ears like gary, but that course got me into this new space with all this. it helped me and one thing it really did. it made me understand that my ears depend on me being relaxed.
one of my favorite musicians, chris potter, does not have perfect pitch. i know some heavy cats that will tell you they don't have it.
the book i'm reading 'this is your brain on music' says that we actually map each pitch to a specific area of our brain. so in a way, PP is built in to everybody. so i don't know what's up there. i know that people who speak tonal languages like oriental ones have a MUCH higher rate of PP.
in the end someone is going to play a chord and you're going to respond, you'll say something or your won't.
i also know the chick that the perfect pitch guy talks about in the magazines. she's my buddies wife and he's the perc teacher at u of del. she'll play anything back to you, but she ain't gonna improvise on all blues for nothin'.
it's all pretty interesting to me. i'm sure chick has the 'whole' package, just like gary, bobby mcferrin and of course herbie.
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Tony Miceli
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com
www.facebook.com/people/Tony-Miceli/604414578
http://twitter.com/tonymiceli
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What book is this?
Jdoubleday Fri, 08/07/2009 - 13:07
In reply to perfect pitch course by tonymiceli
And where do I find it
-Joe Doubleday
http://myspace.com/joedoubleday
http://www.youtube.com/user/Issossk
Yes, inquiring minds want to
tpvibes Fri, 08/07/2009 - 13:19
In reply to What book is this? by Jdoubleday
Yes, inquiring minds want to know :-). But seriously, we do want to know.
Tom P.
Perfect pitch is no big deal
Gary Burton Fri, 08/07/2009 - 12:42
In reply to Wait a second Mr. Burton! by Jdoubleday
Joe, Take my word for it, having perfect pitch is almost meaningless to professional musicians. I discovered at age six that the notes on the piano in our living room each had a unique sound. My father used to delight in just grabbing a couple of handfuls of notes and then I would start at the bottom and read off all the notes he had struck. I read recently that some 5% of American musicians have inborn pitch recognition, while about 40% of Chinese musicians do! Tony was correct about that being related to the melodic nature of the Chinese language. But, the important thing is, it doesn't really make much difference between two professional players, one with perfect pitch and the other with relative pitch. Most of the players I work with do not have perfect pitch (Chick Corea, Pat Metheny, etc). And, I can tell you I have met my share of lame musicians who do have perfect pitch.
All it means is that I got a head start with pitch recognition because I seemed to have it from the beginning, and others developed the equivalent as they developed their musicianship. There is one downside to perfect pitch. It is mentally harder to transpose and I found solfege to be damn near impossible. I could take anything down in dictation, better than anyone else in the ear training class at college, but I was terrible at solfege with moveable Do. To me Do had to be "C" and otherwise I had to transpose on the fly.
To me having perfect pitch remains pretty much the parlor trick that I played with my father as a kid. As a professional, the ear abilities of the players I work with are every bit as good as mine. (Another observation, it's easier to identify pitches on instruments like the piano or vibes, than wind instruments or voice. And, switching back and forth between 440 and 442 sometimes throws me off).
Thats reassuring
Jdoubleday Fri, 08/07/2009 - 13:27
In reply to Perfect pitch is no big deal by Gary Burton
Its good to know that you can get there without having it.
I guess I'll just continue to practice
-Joe Doubleday
http://myspace.com/joedoubleday
http://www.youtube.com/user/Issossk
good plan
tonymiceli Fri, 08/07/2009 - 13:39
In reply to Thats reassuring by Jdoubleday
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Tony Miceli
s k y p e: tjazzvibe
i c h a t: tonymiceli
tony@tonymiceli.com
www.facebook.com/people/Tony-Miceli/604414578
http://twitter.com/tonymiceli
www.myspace.com/tonymicelivibes